Hoyo is keeping their promise with setting up the Genshin endgame with the Shades and the Sinners.
The Shades were given such an abundant lore reveal in the recent video: the God's Limits. Istaroth is seemingly "looking to pass time" but is probably the most active in helping out Teyvat, whether it is Enka or the Sacred Sakura. Ronova is actually the one that is more strict in enforcing the rules, but allows for loopholes to happen like in Natlan. Asmoday is surprisingly revealed to be missing in action, and could have "switched sides to her new master, whom she loves more than herself." And of course Naberius/Rhine are just roomies š„°. With that, we kind of have an increased sense of what the character motivations and goals are of the Shades.
On to the sinners, which actually also recently had a huge lore dump in the 5.7 AQ and the Stygian Onslaught whales only weapon skins. Vedrfolnir, Dain's brother, is the Sinner Crystal all the way back in Caribert. He could technically be called the 'true' founder of the Abyss Order, but it is at least clear that dude loves his time shenanigans and prophecies - even Surtalogi seems to trust his prophecy as if it were truth itself. The Stygian Onslaught weapon links his meddling to control over Time. Rerir we know little about, but we expect to see him heavily involved in Nod Krai as the subject of the Moon Sisters is tackled, he wields the power of Death or something akin to it. Surtalogi is Surtalogi is a battle maniac who wields Space (man is literally a black hole). And finally, again, Rhine and Naberius, who are really good roomies š„°.
Which leaves us with Hroptatyr the Wise, wielding, Starkuthr, the claymore of Reason. The sinner parallel himself to the Heavenly Principles. And yet we know very little about the guy???? Even his (leaked) characterization as the foolish pygmy only left us with "let's kidnap the Light Prince and use him to make us smart!".
There are two likely possibilities: One is Hroptatyr is kind of like the main advisor to the King of Khaenriah, being that the great Wise one would be the counterpart to the great Fool Pierro - the advisor who wasn't listened to.
In the parable of the tree in Before Sun and Moon, there are a few characters: the King, the Gardener, and the Priest. The Gardener is a metaphor more closely aligned to the Shade of Life (and interestingly, the Gardener is also pulling double duty as one half of the Star x Angel metaphor too, the other half being the tree spirit). The priest on the other hand is a likely candidate for a high ranking wise advisor, but the parable specifically points at the priest as an incarnation of Tokoyo Ookami.
And so we have possibility two: Hroptatyr is King Irmin himself. The king in the parable of the tree, who needed the wood to repair the beams of his pavillion, was the incarnation of the Primoridal One. Perfect. And how obvious really, Hroptatyr is another name for Odin, the ultimate wisdom seeker himself, who hung on Yggdrasil to learn the secrets of the runes, the secret of words. Words are Logos itself, and to borrow from Christianity, the Word was God.
But what of the Vinster King? Back in Bedtime Story, Dainsleif regails us with the story of the Sinners: "Once people of great esteem, ... the six of us together should have been the ones to prevent the disaster, the ones to stop the Vinster King from continuing to rock the foundation of the world." Well it sure sounds like Irmin is the Vinster King, but that would mean Hroptatyr isn't Irmin. Actually the Ineffa Weapon Leaks point towards Nibelung as the Vinster King, and that would mean the Dragon King is still rockin it well into the Khaenirah age. Bro's god grudge is so persistent its transcendent. EDIT: Nibelung is probably the progenitor of the line of Vinster Kings.
EDIT: The Vinster King inconsistency remains to be discussed until further lore drops. There is no inconsistency, after checking some other Vinster King mentions commented by others in the thread, it is 100% another monicker for king Irmin. And so yes, Hroptatyr ISN'T Irmin (altho that wouldve made things quite a bit simpler). It could still be that Hroptatyr is actually a surviving king of the Crimson Moon Dynasty, who now serves as an advisor to the Eclipse. This way Hrop still gets the king parallels, and Irmin, as the Vinster Eclipse, swallows the moon keeping the two characters different. But this isn't a well foreshadowed/ telegraphed possibility, especially with the Reason angle.
So where is Hroptatyr now? I actually think bro got offscreened. I think unreliable narrator Dain, right at the climax of the cataclysm, killed Hroptatyr and took his Abyssal authority of Reason. Starkuthr (or as I like to call it - Star Cutter) becomes one with the Twilight Sword. EDIT: This is flimsier now that Hroptatyr isn't Irmin. It still remains a mystery if Irmin and Dain got a chunk of the Abyssal Sibling pie because it really seems like it is just the 5 sinners who got some.
On a final note, A Space and Time for You actually specifies that the power that could destroy the world and could make transcendent sinners is actually "the divided up great abyssal power within the Abyss Sibling". And if the sinners used it to copy the Primordial One and the Shades, then the sum total of your sibling's abyssal power is... like a Descender.
One thing you may have missed is that in the 5.7 archon quest Dain says thatĀ "The Vinster King and the entire Court of Khaenri'ah set about loudly proclaiming the might that (āshe/heā) would bring to the nation."Ā The Vinster King at the time of the cataclysm was a title for King Irmin of Khaenri'ah.Ā Ā
Niebilung also using that title is incredibly suspicious, and I feel it's likely that Irmin and other Khaenri'ahan rulers might be under Nibelung's influence in some way.
I'd like to propose another candidate: Pierro himself.Ā The case that he wasn't the wisest member of King Irmin's court is increasingly flimsy in the face of other evidence, including the most recent trailer.Ā For one we now know the sinners were gathered by Dain in opposition to King Irmin's plans.Ā That rules out Pierro's rival- Dain may have been overly trusting, but recruiting the chief advocate of the plan you are trying to stop is insanity.Ā It would make a lot more sense to recruit the court advisor who had been speaking against the plan-Pierro.Ā We also have evidence of him betraying an unusualĀ level of power-just today, we have Pierro casually spying on a meeting of the shades-that's a pretty insane feat for even a skilled Mage.Ā He also managed to cheat the decay of the curse of immortality, looking today much like he did in Ronova's flashback, but in some way he couldn't share with Capitano.Ā Lastly there's a line from Rhinedottir "working for the Tsaritsa has helped him let go of his past obsessions".Ā That isn't a joke, he abandoned his obsession with "wisdom" and chose to embrace the path of "foolishness", abandoning his title of "the wise".
Wait the sinners were gathered against the plan that brought the cataclysm? Why does Dain blame them so much than is it because he thinks they could have done more?
Exactly.Ā From his first discussion of them in bedtime story.
"And when the cataclysm occurred, not one of them stood up in defense of their nation, not one came forward to prevent the tragedy... And for that, they shall never have my forgiveness".
I wonder what made them go from being against the plan to than joining in and becoming the sinners.
They were obsessed. Rhinedottr wanted to become ultimate mother because of her obsession with creation. Surtalogi obsession with strength. He even left out to find someone stronger than him. Vedrfolnir was chained for telling future to king. He was tortured. Vedrfolnir as visionary probably saw no win situation and chose to wait till mess is done so he can create abyss order and make attack in future. Then wise would be trying to get ultimate wisdom until tsaritsa found him and then became buddies. Dont know about rerir. Who knows if he has obsession with killing/hunting
It was all about power, simple as that. Why resist once everything was already done? At least now they get to become something like demigods. Surtalogiās probably out there happily wrecking worlds across the Honkaiverse.
Yeah I think so too the 2 sinners weāve seen the most so far Gold and Surtalogi both seem power hungry.
Ah I knew I missed something, I was looking into all the Vinster King mentions in text and missed that one. Great catch!
Also you might want to spoiler that middle section, that info is leak territory.
I already had the thought and todays Video likely proofed it: Hroptatyr is probably Pierro. Rhinedottir called him an aquintance, so they knew eachother, like the Sinner seem to do
According to Xbox lore, all sinners are younger generation. Pierro is pretty old. Even older than Capitano
I think that's unlikely. Pale flame set explicitly says "So too did I fail to stop them from tearing away the veil of sin, ushering in a tide of divine wrath, destruction, and foolishness..."
Now either that's an amazing double bluff on his behalf, or Rhinedaughter remembers the Royal Mage who kept yapping about how the sinners shouldn't be sinning which ultimately caused him to lose favour with Irmin. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume they knew each other.
Well Rhine is a top Khaenriahn researcher so she would know a lot of the high ranking officials, sinner or otherwise.
But no, Pierro's description in the Pale Flame Artifact set solidly places him in opposition to the so called wise sages (the sinners):
"Since my level of learning could not compare with the sages, I failed to earn the favor of the previous ruler. So too did I fail to stop them from tearing away the veil of sin."
It was his disdain for the so-called wisdom found by the sinners that he felt he would rather play as the Jester, leading a band of grand fools - the Fatui.
The sinners were not the Khaenri'ahan leadership, they were the five companions Dain gathered to stop the plans of those people.Ā Verdofnir got blinded and imprisoned by Irmin. Pierro's ranting against the court of Khaenri'ah actually makes him a good candidate for being recruited by Dain and then becoming a sinner.
The sinners are not leadership but they were all "at the top of their respective fields". While they were probably not the ones pushing over reliance on Abyssal technology, they were probably eccentrics that succeeded with using abyssal powers and inadvertently sparked the growing interest in it.
Pierro is in clear opposition against the Abyss though based on the description of the Pale Flame artifact set. So I think it's highly unlikely that he was attracted to its powers and chose not to save Khaenri'ah, earning a title as one of the Sinners.
"Cleanse the sources of distortion in this world: short-sighted, ignorant gods and the darkness and corruption of the Abyss."
That is what he's saying after the cataclym.Ā It's quite likely the man calling himself a jester and a fool has made some decisions that he deeply regrets in his life.Ā His current strong opposition to the abyss could be the result of his own fall to it's temptations during the cataclysm.
Still doesn't make sense to me that Pierro would be a transcendent being with "world-shattering power" and oppose the Abyss. What would he do with that power then? Cast it away somewhere? Why not use it against the gods that he hates so much?
I'm sorry where are we getting Vedrfolnir got blinded and imprisoned?
Wings of fate's course intertwined.
"initially intending only to save his older brother, who had been imprisoned and blinded in both eyes for giving an oracle, the young knight gathered the brilliant young ones of the age."
I did read this before, darn Xbox exclusive slipped my mind on items with relevant Khaenriah lore. Okay so definitely Hroptatyr isn't Irmin - quite a bit needed to rewrite this theory then.
Hroptatyr is not pierro. They were five wiseĀ sinners and pierro is the fool
means nothing. there were 5 sinners, but only 4 shades, so the others called him a fool for trying to become the shade of Reason.
I think hroptatyr maybe ike from veras melancholy. Even a line from veras melancholy- future saves the past is on dains introduction.Ā Ā
It's either that he is sidelined or hoyo will just mess up and make him Pierro.
Lore confirms he isn't Pierro tho.