OnePiece
This one panel broke the entire power structure of One Piece forever
Discussion
I think it only seemed that way when we first saw it. We were all like Zoro: how the fuck can we ever beat someone like that? And he's not even really a villain or anything, just a bored guy!
However, I loved his introduction because it gives us a taste of the true heights of power that exist in this world. The man can't fly, teleport, or do any crazy world-ending DBZ shit, but he CAN sail the grand line alone, deflect bullets, and slice a warship in half without breaking a sweat. He's got reasonable limits that most characters share, but the limits to his swordplay don't exist. When it comes to that one particular skill, he's the best in the world, and of course Zoro wasn't ready to fight him yet.
When we see him in Marineford, nothing's changed. He's STILL the best swordsman, and Luffy is no match. But in this theater of war, he is only somewhat notable, considering the level of power others are working with. It sends home that original message again - Luffy and co. are not ready to fight the world yet. It justifies the time skip, and gets us excited to see how our crew will reach those heights. We want to see them win, but we need to see them lose first, otherwise it will feel too easy.
No, it didn't.
Mihawk's early introduction didn't break the power structure, it established the power structure as a key piece of very good world building.
It early on set a soft cap on power feats, thus preemptively avoiding later BS ass pulls in power creeping like Dragon Ball, where you go from enemies leveling a city to destroying a planet to destroying whole universes.
It early on introduced the idea that people have their specialities and niche fighting styles, which is important because in One Piece battles are not dependent on strength but on conviction and ambition. The unique characters in a match-up determine the outcome way more than their raw power.
The early introduction is the one thing in the whole story that made every power scaling BS talk completely pointless to begin with. That's why it did not break the power structure. It's the very base OP's solid power structure is built on. It destroyed power scaling. Good riddance to that.
And it established, without a doubt, that there are big powers out there worth striving to match and defeat.
avoiding later BS ass pulls in power creeping like Dragon Ball, where you go from enemies leveling a city to destroying a planet to destroying whole universes
I think the problem with Dragonball was that every main villain in an arc was “the strongest being in the universe” and Goku never really developed new techniques, he just got stronger, so in the next arc the new main villain was just “well actually this guy is the strongest”.
I was worried when Gear 2 was revealed, because it looked like Oda was just going to go the Super Saiyan route, but Gears 3 and up are all different powers instead of just “he’s even faster and stronger now”.
Even Gear 2 is just Luffy pushing his rubber body to the max by using his legs as additional blood pumps. It’s way more interesting than “he’s just stronger now,” it’s something nobody else can do because of his powers.
And super saiyan was something no one else could do because they weren’t saiyans.
G2 reveal was an extremely super saiyan reveal moment. It could have led to all the other Gears just being the same thing but better, but Oda thankfully went in a different direction.
Nah, that’s a Z onwards problem.
The latter parts of super went to another direction..mainly because they got to universe powers
They mean Dragon Ball specifically doesn't suffer from this problem, it was Z that started it and it got carried over moving forward with GT and Super.
Yeah, I got it, which is why I said latter parts of super they changed that.
It also helps that Gear 2 and Gear 3 were revealed very close to each other. It pretty much immidiately established the idea that they are not progressive power ups, but different tools which are supposed to be used in different situations.
That idea kinda got overshadowed with Gear 4, tho, at least till we learned of the existance of snakeman, which just meant that the formula changed, not the idea itself.
Which is totally fine IMHO. Like Sanji, his improvement is internalizing their previous power up (gear 2, 3, and diable) so they can just do it whenever instead of needing a transformation. So gear 4 being his newer power up are welcomed.
Gear 5 in the other hand. It seems to be his default now not caring about other gear.
From dragon ball classic to super there isn't a single villain to claim to be the strongest, maybe frieza with the emperor thing, but he was weaker than his father. From pilaf to red ribon no villain was the "strongest", og Piccolo was an ancient evil, with Piccolo Jr going for revenge, Vegeta knew he was weaker than top frieza soldier, king cold > frieza, the Android were made to kill Goku, Cell strengh come from the absorbed androids and Z fighter cells samples, Buu origins are unknown but at his first appearence he was "equal" with Goku and didn't lose cuz Goku had a time limit due being dead, and Bills is still stronger than Goku.
I think the problem with Dragonball was that every main villain in an arc was “the strongest being in the universe” and Goku never really developed new techniques, he just got stronger, so in the next arc the new main villain was just “well actually this guy is the strongest”.
Most of the techniques anyone else learned didn't really do much to change the way fights worked anyway. A lot were just subtle variants on different kinds of energy blasts, or stuff like regeneration that just boiled down to having to atomize enemies instead of being able to defeat them in a regular fight... there were a lot of problems with Dragonball, I don't think you can call any of them "the" problem, but yeah, the techniques were a big creativity hole.
Most of the techniques anyone else learned didn't really do much to change the way fights worked anyway.
That’s what I would consider the other main problem with Dragonball. The side characters could just not exist and the story wouldn’t really change.
Everything you said is true, which is why the whole arc is great.
But you missed the point: the issue isn't having an endgame-level threat appear early on, it's the title "World's Strongest Swordsman" that is both an absolute (nobody above) and still incredibly vague - because how does the strongest in one single category hold up against the strongest in another? And what does "strongest swordsman" mean exactly? Stronger than any person wielding a sword or simply stronger than those who specialize in swordsmanship entirely (like Zoro)?
After that title being introduced, the power structure was all over the place in the heads of the readers/viewers. And to be honest, it never really calmed down or recovered from that. That title is still problematic.
I don't think it's that hard to understand. Zoro wants to be the world's strongest swordsman. Mihawk is the current strongest. Thus Mihawk is Zoro's endgame goal.
For narrative purposes we as readers are supposed to assume that no matter how strong Zoro gets, he's not the strongest swordsman until he defeats Mihawk. Similarly, any swordsman Zoro defeats is meant to be assumed to be weaker than Mihawk.
The problem is that "powerscaling" revolves entirely around the idea of taking who would win in a fight very seriously, which includes trying to figure out exactly how fast or how strong a character is. Mihawk has obviously not shown us his full potential yet but until he does there could be characters who seem much stronger at face value just because they've actually displayed their strength. So the fact that Mihawk is stated to be the strongest is the only thing to go off of.
The real problem here is none of that shit matters and Oda doesn't care. He's writing a story, not powerscaling, so when a text box appears saying Mihawk is the strongest you're expected to just believe it. People just take powerscaling way too seriously.
Ok but then Oda introduces several characters who wield swords as their primary weapon that may or may not be stronger than Mihawk. And he doesn’t always explain a concrete reason why. Sometimes you can chalk it up to a Devil Fruit Power like for Big Mom.
But then you have Shanks who has shown no concrete abilities outside of swordsmanship yet is consistently portrayed as more important, more hype, and just seemingly more powerful. To make matters worse Shanks and Mihawk used to be rivals until Shanks lost his arm so the two have history of competing in strength.
Every single Haki ability we’ve been shown acts as nothing more than a boost to one’s stats. Armament and Conquerors coating increase a person’s defensive and offensive abilities. Observation increases a person reaction time and ability to sense incoming attacks. None of these abilities would fundamentally change how a person fights pre and post learning Haki. The only exception is the fodder intimidation ability you get from basic Conquerors haki but that is useless in a battle against an equal.
Shanks has shown nothing but swordsmanship? My guy, he’s showcased his top tier conquerors haki in Wano, his top tier observation haki future sight with Kidd on Elbaf, and he’s literally pulled up to Marineford to end the war after stopping Kaido from pulling up. We’ve seen how strong Kaido is, and the admirals. Even if we don’t see Shanks fight seriously. there’s no need with these feats.
In my head canon this is why mihawk won't fight shanks, when shanks had both arms he probably was the strongest swordsman and mihawk acknowledged that, and once shanks lost his arm and mihawk was left with no competition of course he respects him enough to not fight him and make light of what he used to be, one on one In a sword fight mihawk would currently take the W this isn't to take away from shanks and the seeming reverence people have for his ability he may still be stronger than mihawk as implied but I'm sure that is using many other abilities besides the sword play
In your head canon does Zoro send the Lord of the Coast edible arrangements and thank you cards every now and then to show his gratitude for making his life’s dream possible? Because if Mihawk only has the title as a consolation prize, that’s what that would mean for Zoro.
Not really, it just means he would have had to have beaten Shanks rather than mihawk had things gone differently
Which the story would never have allowed so it’s pretty fortunate Shanks got taken out of the running
I mean to be fair we still don't know where the story is going and what may happen, the fact that shanks now has a twin you would imagine he's on a similar level if not more powerful due to imu buffs I wouldn't be surprised if the whole mihawk thing is retconned anyways or never even plays out, it would be highly unfortunate but oda has quite alot to rap up and make satisfying if he truly wants the series to end in less than 2 years and the power creep is unreal, I personally don't think the god knights should have been introduced this late but where I see the series going with the marines most likely flipping sides I get that the WG was gonna need some heavy hitters for the end war but either A. Mihawk over gods knights and zoro over mihawk makes them redundant in the first place or B. Gods knights over mihawk which kinda ruins 20 years of hype, not to mention S. Hawk and his potential and whatever being mihawk with lunerian blood, the story is getting intense and fun but it also is kind of ruining some of the earlier world building in my opinion
Not to mention that he's the strongest according to who? When was this last verified? People always say Mihawk would beat Shanks because they are both swordsmen, but by that logic Mihawk will always beat Zoro because they are both swordsmen as well. You are only the greatest swordsman until you arent and at some point someone is going to over take Mihawk.
Same story with Kaidou. "In a 1v1, always bet on Kaidou". Its only a good bet until someone else beats him. Whether you consider the Luffy v Kaidou fight a 1v1 or not (since they both faced a lot of scrubs before being alone for the finale), it finished as a 1v1 and Luffy won.
But if Mihawk isn’t actually the WSS then when Zoro does defeat him it will be pointless. Zoro isn’t ever going to fight Shanks so if there is any dispute to Mihawk’s title then it will screw up Zoro’s plot line. Mihawk and the WSS title exist as plot devices for Zoro’s story. If they don’t fulfill their role well then one of the main characters of the series will suffer in their writing.
I think Mihawk talking shit about shanks arm is a cute joke on why they don’t consider shanks as strong of a swordsman now. And how Mihawk doesn’t want to compete against someone handicapped (what a dick). Zoro got both arms + future haki man. That’s our future strongest swordsman!
Just a little 2 cents from me.
Good point! Is it a tournament title or is it the omniscient narrator telling us an objective truth at the point it is shown to us? Or was it just Morgans calling him that after defeating Shanks the last time they sparred?
It really is just a snapshot of his power (and possibly the world as a whole) to call him that, especially early on.
I don't know wether I agree or not.
[it] isn't having an endgame-level threat appear early on, it's the title "World's Strongest Swordsman" that is both an absolute (nobody above) and still incredibly vague - because how does the strongest in one single category hold up against the strongest in another? And what does "strongest swordsman" mean exactly? Stronger than any person wielding a sword or simply stronger than those who specialize in swordsmanship entirely (like Zoro)?
That part I agree with. It's part of what I originally meant and contributes to what I said, but:
That title is still problematic.
That I don't agree with. It's not problematic. Nothing of all of this is an "issue" - all of what you said and what I said is working as intended. It's amazingly done and exactly the way it needs to be.
Nãh, right after Mihawk said that reaching the throne of the pirate king would be far more difficulty to reach than defeat him, it was a statement that regardless of his status, he wasn't the endgame
Underrated take
Do you think statements like "Haki transcends all" from Kaido go against this idea? As well as any instance of a character winning solely because their haki was stronger.
Not at all! Because haki, as much as the fandom seems to think it's a simple scale with low haki on one end and high haki on the other, is very complex. Since it's rooted in personal conviction, it's basically as complex as the human psyche. It's heavily intertwined with the characters' personality, their individual beliefs, their ideals and goals.
That makes haki inherently an extension of exactly the same idea of battles being dependent on the individuals and not simply their "power level".
Haki doesn't go against this concept, in contrary it supports it.
People also make no sense with power scaling. Like they refuse to believe current luffy is stronger/as strong as certain admirals or Kaido.
Oda will make characters as strong as he wants to fit the one piece story, and the main character will become stronger than them to achieve moving the plot forward.
Yeah to an extent. But then he introduced haki - which is literally just I got more power than you.
Luffy is basically fighting gods now.
They aren blowing up the moon levels yet but it’s at the city level.
Sure, but it was always at the city level. Mihawk sank an entire fleet alone, he needed nothing more than a single swing with his sword for a battleship. The level never changed. Haki just offered an explenation for how a human without a devil fruit can be able to accomplish feats like that. And while haki was introduced later, yes, fair point, it was at the same time retroactively applied specifically to Mihawk so it didn't really change anything in that regard.
I was a DB fan in my youth and a OP fan now, and I really get what you mean. If you take the strongest character in OP, it's about the level of Piccolo when he first appeared against young Goku (destroying a city). So it really smoothen the curve in term of strength progression. Even if a character is way stronger, his level is still reachable.
I know of an author who uses some sort of Dungeons and Dragons stat system for his fantasy characters. These stats are hidden from the readers, but they inform the author's decision on how fights play out and such.
I think that's a good idea, you can basically set the protagonist's initial strength at 10 and the final boss at 100 and then fill the universe with villains that all exist on this scale, without getting into world destroying powers.
It didn't, you guys just hate Mihawk for some reason. I don't even know why, he's a pretty cool character, so that can't be it, and his feats fit those of the worlds strongest swordsman.
I think what it is is hype over the "he can beat shanks" statement, but even that doesn't make much sense. Mihawk beating Shanks doesn't mean Mihawk beats someone like Kaido for instance. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses.
Also, there's the agenda that he beats anyone who wields a sword which is just untrue. Titles aren't granted to people by omniscient gods, they're just what people say. Everyone thinks Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, so he's called that, it doesn't matter if the Holy Knights or Imu wield a sword and are stronger because nobody knows they exist.
The first time we see the title, it was given by the narrator and not the people of the world. Regardless, mihawk vs holy knights, i’m betting on mihawk.
The first time we see the title, it was given by the narrator and not the people of the world.
That doesn't mean anything. The narrator gave the title because that is the title he has, not because it's a definitive fact.
The narrator also doesn't call Shanks a celestial dragon even though that's something we've learnt about him recently. The narrator doesn't always tell the whole truth is what I'm getting at.
why are people so obsessed about powerscaling
Cuz they can't pay attention to the narrative direction and Plot of the story.
I know right? Like I don’t really give a fuck about who’s stronger than who, I care about the central mystery and the adventure more than anything. One Piece isn’t some min/max power system anime even if it has elements of it.
I think it’s somehow ingrained in us as people, like “my dad can beat up your dad”
Lol fr, many peoples reaction to big moms defeat was calling Oda a bad author cause Luffy didn't 1v2 yonko
Gear 5 is a literal power up oda usedto destroy all power scaling in his story. Now he could do whatever he wants
Luffy fruit isn't the power of imagination
Oda only answered "It is the entrance to Nika's fantasy"
Same difference
I kinda feel like power-scaling goes hand-in-hand with the adventure. One of the earliest and most popular characters has the stated goal of becoming "the world's strongest," which definitely invites strength comparisons. It doesn't need to be a main focus of the story, but I think it's reasonable for fans to get excited about this prominent character's journey.
I think you care more about powerscaling than you think you do. For example, I'm more scared for Chopper facing against a deadly enemy than I am if Sanji does, and I think that narrative shorthand of generally knowing who's stronger than who is really useful in an action-adventure story.
Aokiji's first appearance not only meant a lot because of his history with Robin, but because he was so clearly stronger than Robin's friends who vowed to protect her. It establishes a goal to reach.
We know going into the Onigashima Raid that Kaido is one of the strongest characters in the story. This gives Red Scabbards doing their best to damage Kaido so much more weight because we know it's futile (the other thing is obviously we knew it was Luffy's job to beat Kaido, but still). We know they'll lose, but how they fight to avenge Oden is still gripping.
Powerscaling is a narrative tool like any other, usually it establishes stakes and sets expectations for character interactions. Those are necessary for any adventure story.
Yes because everyone should care about it like that because you do 🤣 It’s a battle manga, of course people are gonna wanna powerscale and rank the characters on who’s stronger
God forbid they enjoy the story for two reasons instead of one
I mean it is a confusing statement, regardless of powerscaling.
Pirate king had a straightforward goal - find the One Piece, get to the final island. The one strong enough to do that and make it across the whole Grand Line is Pirate King. Easy enough.
What in the world does 'strongest swordsman' mean? - the strongest guy wielding a sword? - the one with the best technique? - the swordsman that has lost the least/ never lost a battle? Or has defeated the greatest number of swordsmen in 1v1? - the one the marines voted as being most lethal? Most deadly?
Honestly technique should be the answer, but there's been practically 0 emphasis on technique besides haki. All sword styles are shown as equally valid - 8 sword, 2 sword, single sword...none of them seemingly give an advantage besides how well you utilize that style.
There is no hierarchy of 'skill' save two marks - the legendary/rarity status of the sword, and having a black blade.
But with haki it gets complicated further as the black blade appears to be related to a haki technique of imbuing the sword with CoC.
So the only techniques we've seen are related to imbuing Haki into a sword, and a proto-haki ability to cut through steel...that we got back in Alabasta.
Therefore, the two greatest determinants of swordsmanship that we've been given are based in - the sword itself, regardless of skill. - haki ability, and having CoC on top of that. ...nothing to do with your ability to wield a sword/ or at least nothing quantifiable to show how one wields a sword better than another.
In other words, if someone had the greatest haki in the world, but then grabbed a sword, would that qualify them as the greatest swordsman? So far that could well be the case.
Further, if Shanks uses a sword and has better Haki - since his main strength appears to be his Haki - then how is he any less the greatest swordsman than Mihawk? Where did the title come from? How does one get it?
It's not just powerscaling, narratively how does one obtain the title of Greatest Swordsman, what makes one a 'great' swordsman besides beating other swordsmen?
It just gets real messy. And all we see Zoro do is train his strength/ literal powerlifting type stuff, never his technique with the blade. So it seems to boil down to 'he with the greatest muscle strength and greatest haki wins.'
No need to think so much about it. It becomes messy if you infer many cases about it.
How do you become the grandmaster in chess? You have to win the tournament. The tournament usually consists of other grandmasters so to be the number one, you'd have to win the tournament. Makes it very simple even if you are great, But don't defeat the grandmaster in the specific tournament. You can't say you're the greatest, even if your ability is better.
So if you follow the narrative of the story, shanks never defeated mihawk in combat while he held the title obtained from the previous greatest swordsman.
I mean it is a confusing statement, regardless of powerscaling.
Pirate king had a straightforward goal - find the One Piece, get to the final island. The one strong enough to do that and make it across the whole Grand Line is Pirate King. Easy enough.
What in the world does 'strongest swordsman' mean? - the strongest guy wielding a sword? - the one with the best technique? - the swordsman that has lost the least/ never lost a battle? Or has defeated the greatest number of swordsmen in 1v1? - the one the marines voted as being most lethal? Most deadly?
Honestly technique should be the answer, but there's been practically 0 emphasis on technique besides haki. All sword styles are shown as equally valid - 8 sword, 2 sword, single sword...none of them seemingly give an advantage besides how well you utilize that style.
There is no hierarchy of 'skill' save two marks - the legendary/rarity status of the sword, and having a black blade.
But with haki it gets complicated further as the black blade appears to be related to a haki technique of imbuing the sword with CoC.
So the only techniques we've seen are related to imbuing Haki into a sword, and a proto-haki ability to cut through steel...that we got back in Alabasta.
Therefore, the two greatest determinants of swordsmanship that we've been given are based in - the sword itself, regardless of skill. - haki ability, and having CoC on top of that. ...nothing to do with your ability to wield a sword/ or at least nothing quantifiable to show how one wields a sword better than another.
In other words, if someone had the greatest haki in the world, but then grabbed a sword, would that qualify them as the greatest swordsman? So far that could well be the case.
Further, if Shanks uses a sword and has better Haki - since his main strength appears to be his Haki - then how is he any less the greatest swordsman than Mihawk? Where did the title come from? How does one get it?
It's not just powerscaling, narratively how does one obtain the title of Greatest Swordsman, what makes one a 'great' swordsman besides beating other swordsmen?
It just gets real messy. And all we see Zoro do is train his strength/ literal powerlifting type stuff, never his technique with the blade. So it seems to boil down to 'he with the greatest muscle strength and greatest haki wins.'
I love the autism at work here. This is exactly how I feel sometimes navigating life.
Some people enjoy reading One Piece for different things
"Enjoying" One Piece for power scaling is like buying a brand new car because you wanted the giant ribbon.
How is it remotely like that
Some people can enjoy it for multiple things at once
nah, One Piece is still a battle shounen and therefore trying to figure out where individual characters land on that spectrum isn't exactly a crazy thing to do.
I'd even argue that One Piece is a uniquely fun anime to powerscale because Oda doesn't place as much of a focus on it as other battle shounens do. This allowes for ambiguity and offers a lot of room for discussion and speculation. Crocodile is a good example, by all means he should be a fairly weak character considering how pre-haki and even pre-gear 2 Luffy managed to beat him. Yet after Marineford he's suddenly up there again. This might be frustrating for some since it's (at least to my understanding) more or less a plot hole but it keeps things fun and unpredictable.
That being said, powerscaling is generally not something I'm interested. I just understand that other people find it fun
I understand what you are saying but Crocoboy is probably a poor example to use. The guy was always a powerful character who tried to kill even WB. Him losing to "Pre-TS Luffy" seems to suggest he was weak even though Pre-TS Luffy was a literal powerhouse. The guy got cocky since he's a logia and many dont know haki and couldnt take a brawler like Luffy.
You also forget as a Warlord his bounty was frozen so him escaping and causing havoc again, especially with a dangerous logia, it makes sense for him to be up there again.
There is no plot hole here.
People can enjoy One Piece however they want, it offers a lot to everyone. I'm specifically addressing the people who ONLY focus on powerscaling characters and seem to disregard every other aspect of the series. Hence the ribbon.
What? That makes no sense. Its still a battle shounen, people like battles and fights.
it's all for the agenda
I think it’s because the majority of conflict involving the Straw Hats was resolved with violence.
The superpowers of the One Piece political world being heavily influenced by might = authority in the form of individuals instead of advance weaponry is another factor. A big part of the first set of Four Emperors rivaling the World Government is because they can individually wipe out battalions and small armies.
It’s kind of hard not to power scale when the individual strength of a characters can completely change the trajectory of the story (ex. Sabaody Archipelago Arc)
Idk…probably because over half the episodes in major arcs now are mostly fighting
They're either literal children, or losers. I'm sorry, but that's the only reasons to actually care about fictional fighting powers.
I think there's a gambling or gameify aspect to it, people pick a side and want their side to win. Reminds me a lot of my gambling friends who would get easy too worked up about their picks and can't just enjoy the sport itself.
Because powerscaling plays more role in other shonen anime. People come to One Piece expecting it to be the same.
I mean, establishing this is a powerscaling tool used by Oda. Powerscaling is necessary in any action story - whether it's strict or loose depends on the type of story the author wants to tell. One Piece is more loose with it, but it's still present for sure. Even just establishing power hierarchies like Admirals being the top of the Marines or Yonkos being the strongest pirates are powerscaling by Oda. The fact that some Straw Hats are stronger than others plays into how to make the narrative tense in a given situation. Stuff like this is necessary to make sense of to be invested in a story.
People just take powerscalers being annoying on the internet and dismiss powerscaling's utility as a narrative tool.
We get it bro you are intellectually enlightened
Damn straight bucko
Because they mainline ‘it’s not that deep’ to avoid discomfort.
dragon ball brain rot
Because it is a shonen and all major arc are about overcoming a strong enemi by becoming stronger ? People complaining about powerscaling discussion about a shonen are strange.
This is sort of silly. Mihawk helped establish the power scaling by casually obliterating huge ships with single slashes, and defeating Zoro with zero effort. No fancy techniques or obvious, explosive applications of haki. He didn't even need a sword to beat Zoro.
This stays pretty consistent, as we see these sorts of feats replicated by other characters at world-class levels of power. Ace and Garp demonstrate the same thing when they first show up a bit later, effortlessly destroying whole ships. Indeed, at this point in the manga, being shown to easily blow up multiple giant pirate or Marine ships is basically used as a quick indicator that the audience should take the character seriously as a fighter.
If anything, the early-series event that genuinely fucks with the powerscaling to this day is probably Luffy defeating Crocodile as a super-early villain. The story now treats Crocodile as if he's been an endgame-level fighter all along; he has a vast new bounty, and acts like a peer and implied equal to Mihawk. But he demonstrated no obvious haki usage during his fight with Luffy, and Luffy had to get a lot stronger to be able to defeat Doflamingo, another warlord of the sea. The story just seems to want to kind of ignore this and treat Crocodile like he's been this powerful (and presumably had access to at least basic haki) all along.
It was explained that Crocodile had lost his will after being defeated by whitebeard before coming to Alabastar. So it was a weak version of Crocodile that Luffy fought, one without haki because haki is literaly the manifestation of the will of a person. Oda is a master in consistency. We also know he recover his will during impel down/marineford arc.
Most of that's straight up headcanon bro
I always saw Luffys win over Crocodile as symbolic where Alabasta is freed with it raining after crocodile’s defeat.
As soon as Croc gets his will back to escape Impel Down, he’s a beast on the battlefield. Man threw hands with everyone he could.
Swordsman vs Man-With-Sword
There both swordsman
Zoro's first opponent was a man with a sword who Zoro claims is not a true swordsman
Oda says shanks is a swordsman don’t be dumb please.
Yes. I don't understand why people can't comprehend this simple thing. Oden, Zoro, Brook, Ryuma, Mihawk and Vista they are all swordsmen. Every single one of them trained to become a swordsman. Their main weapon, power, skill is a swordsmanship. They know swords techniques. But Bigmom, Luffy(in thriller bark), Kuzan, Kizaru, Shanks and Whitebeard are different. Their main power is not from swordsmanship, they just happened to use swords.
Power scalers don’t know the difference between a swordsman and someone that just uses a sword lmao
I’ve described this as “imagine if while kid Goku and Krillan were training and then Android 18 showed up”.
hydrogen kamehameha vs newborn baby who hasnt had bio android modifications yet
"Oh, hi; who are yo- MY FLESH! IT'S RUINED!"
Mihawk, mohawk, smohawk doesn't matter shanks in 5
“He got me,” Mihawk said of Shank’s haki over him. "That f***ing Shanks boomed me." Mihawk added, “He’s so good,” repeating it four times. Mihawk then said he wanted to add Shanks to the list of pirates he sails with this summer.
Mihawk > shanks
At sword-fighting, sure. But not necessarily in overall terms.
hell at this point even if Mihawk is stronger, who actually cares? It'd be like power-scaling Franky and Bellamy.
Well it matters if Zoro defeating Mihawk is supposed to hold any weight whatsoever….
But shanka only has one. /s
i swear i read this same title on a shitty clickbait tabloid
What power structure? Was there ever a power structure?
Some are pretty clear like warlord<commander<yonko<pirate king
Please shut up
Nah, it established the base for feats in One Piece. Which ultimately led to doing away with power scaling completely, so that's cool.
Bogard confirmed stronger than Mihawk
Oh, look another power scaling post how mihawk broke it but in reality he set it
A OP post where OP is not only wrong but baits the entire sub into a powerscaling conversation
Very on par for a OP post
You can't break what doesn't exist. One piece is a terrible manga to powerscale
This was the chapter that had me hooked reading this in Shonen Jump back in like '04
kinda? it pretty much just set a hard cap on the power as he's meant to be functionally the strongest individual because of how the title works, that being "strongest person who uses a sword".
But it wigs it out because the majority of top powers use a sword[shanks, big mom] or something sword-adjacent[whitebeard, shiki, kaido if you push it a little more]
Everything is a mihawk upscale
The power structure was never well assembled.
He's said to be the strongest swordsman, yet he fights with barely a swordsman to a draw, while Whitebeard is said to be the strongest man, but always bet on Kaido in a fight,
Whitebeard has insane destructive power, hence the epithet 'strongest man'. Kaido has great durability and great power. Hence, always bet on Kaido in a 1 on 1 fight. At least, that's how I rationalised it.
I don't disagree. Adding more details, I'd say if you challenge Mihawk to a sword deul, you're going to lose, and if you battle Shanks you're going to be over powered.
This is to say the power scaler was never linear. Like one big bad is directly under another and so on and so forth. For all we know, legitimately Imu could be as frail as a baby duckling but is in their position through their influence or some other means. I'm not suggesting or hoping for that, I just mean with Oda's writing, we can be surprised.
People just read way too much into it
Nah
Honestly, just because Mihawk manhandled Zoro, doesn`t mean we knew how high up the power-scale goes.
He went easy on him.
Slicing up a ship? Using only a small knife?
He could have used a toothpick.
It was deliberate. And it didn`t show more than Oda wanted.
The world was bigger than Zoro thought.
But we didn`t know HOW much bigger it was
Break how? 🤣
I get the sentiment though so I’ll let it slide.🛝
The more the story goes on, the more you look back at this and think "zoro really didnt have even a shred of a chance of even touching mihawk"
Amd Mihawk humored him anyway
Like an ant wanting to fight a rhino
Powerscaling doesn’t exist. The winner of a fight is always whoever the author decides, everyone.
How well those choices build a believable difference in power can make the anime better or worse, and in this case I believe it helps setup Zoros path and shows us how far they still need to go.
honestly "swordsman" is doing a lot of lifting for mihawk. since its also a philosophical path and not just swinging a sword around.
3 Words
That’s all it took to mindbreak Shanks-stans for over two decades
Shanks stans are fine nowadays
Besides Zoro who really respects dude
The marines, buggy, other pirates
One piece has no power structure.
Maybe it's just because I'm a newer One Piece fan, but that didn't break the power structure. It showed just how outrageously strong some characters are.
Often times, maybe it was just me, but when characters did something insane early on in the series, I just took it as "oh, they are just playing up, to make it seem crazy". But as time goes on, you realize that no, it still all fits the powerscaling.
Mihawk cut a boat in half at Baratie. But we learn that hardly his peak. He uses a little knife against Zoro, because he knew Zoro didn't stand a chance. It's like, current Zoro handicapping himself against a weaker swordsman.
Or when Garp first gets introduced and dashes past Zoro and Sanji. At first it's like "oh that's just done as a way to be like "see how fast he is?"" But in the One Piece universe, that's us seeing him essentially use "Shave". He hits Luffy, and everybody says "how did that hurt Luffy? He's rubber". But as we learn later, Garp can use Haki.
One piece never really destroys its own Power structure, it has always left room for growth. It's always allowed for more and more powerful people and abilities.
That's also why I don't mind Crocodile being beaten by Luffy so early. I don't think anybody can deny that Crocodile is very strong, and didn't fully display his power against Luffy. But it's because he was controlling the sand all across Alabasta, and also simply because he underestimated Luffy. Crocodile can still be extremely strong, but he didn't lose because of his strength, he lost because of his arrogance.
It was explained that Crocodile had lost his will after being defeated by whitebeard before coming to Alabastar. So it was a weak version of Crocodile that Luffy fought, one without haki because haki is literaly the manifestation of the will of a person. Oda is a master in consistency. We also know he recover his will during impel down/marineford arc.
This is the one point you can go back to justify haki.
A decade+ old title that Oda wrote damn near 30 years ago
I thought Oda made it pretty clear. He is the strongest swordsman, but pirate king is a greater/harder feat, as said by Mihawk himself (harder = need to be stronger to attain). Meaning Shanks is either his equal or superior since he’s a (leading) candidate for pirate king.
Pirate Kings has to do with finding the treasure, WS is about strength.
There is nothing in the story that suggest Shanks is stronger then Mihawk
Yes there are plenty, like Mihawk enable to easily pass Vista and Shanks one shot Kid. Or Mihawk testing the gap between him and a yonko only to be stopped by a commander.
actually, the pirate king is the one who is the most free
This is the most influential panel in one piece powerscaling history. It completely changed how people view the strength of characters.
Not forever. Let's say Oda will draw a chapter in post Elbaf arc, where Mihawk one-shots green bull.
Watch it be a play on words and he actually ate a fruit that turns him into a literal swordman BUT he's just a good swordsman already so battles without his fruit unless the situation is dire
Why is his name Hawkeye Eyehawk
Not only that, it made the story longer than it was supposed to be because since Oda established Mihawk as one of the 7 Warlords, he had to cover all of them.
Everything is a Mihawk upscale
How? All this did is create a ceiling Zoro would needed to reach.
And this was like 15 years ago or something
15 years ago was Impel Down / Marineford.
No it didn’t
I wonder where he keeps the paint of the ship.
I wonder how many characters could cut a boat in half with a single sword swing. Could someone like Franky or Oven do it?
It did?
Baratie arc in general is a textbook example of "there's always a bigger fish"
Many people under sell Baratie but its legitimately the first true "One Piece" arc to me. The vast world building that OP is known for truly started here.
For sure. People always forget that Baratie is when the warlords are first mentioned. And Jimbe is called out by name
I always forget the jinbei name drop, oda really waited a decade to introduce him after that, such patience
Hello. Can you please remind me why Jinbei was mentioned here? What was the context?
It was to introduce Mihawk as part of the warlord power structure as well as segue to Arlong with also an introduction to an entire racial group of fishmen.
At that time, I thought Jinbei was gonna be the big bad in the Grandline cause strawhat beat up his former underling i.e Arlong.
Ohhh yeah, that's right. For some reason I forgot Jinbei was a pirate warlord at some point, how silly. It makes sense now. I need to reread the manga, something that I was already planning to do, now taking notes about the plot to assimilate more. Indeed there was some badass aura around Jinbei before we met him for the first time. Thanks, friend.
Wtf?
The way Sanji leaves Baratie is one of the best farewell.
"Don't catch a cold" and the macho wall came down to cry together. Sanji clueless he was being though loved by everyone, not just Zeff.
Yeh the pacing in the fight is bad but that's when we get "I will never lose again" from Zoro.
Really sets up the bigger world and they are tiny fishes yet. Zeff is a retired pirate too.
Ah, I also watch craftsfward
Yeah, the Baratie restaurant was a pretty big fish. Seakings are still bigger tho
You think seakings are big? Then you haven’t seen neptunians!
Oh boy you think neptunians are big? Just wait till you see Ussop!
clears throat you mean God Usopp
I think you mean God Usopp Sniperking
uh excuse me, but God Usopp of the Usopp Pirates (a subsidiary of the Straw Hats) and Sniperking of Sniper Island are two different people.
clearly he means because they are close allies
My mistake I meant trained by and close friends with Sniperking of Sniper island.
Are they bigger than Zunesha?
Idk ask the vivre card lmao
I asked I it a question but all it does is nudge itself gently in one direction. Should I break out an Ouija board or something?
The elephant could bat anyone half way across the new world
I was going to say ors but dang zunesha was clever
You think Usopp is big? Wait until you see my dick
You mean his nose?
Have you seen Condoriano?
You mean Con D Oriano?
that was g8 right
You're correct! Best filler arc in all of anime imo
without a doubt in my opinion
The "bigger fish" is Don Krieg
https://preview.redd.it/2wojb44jhvbf1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0c756b37092ff7809dcb669fd941847b8eb65b2
Has Kaidou ever beaten Krieg in a fight? Yeah didn't think so
Land, sea, or air, always bet on Don Krieg
As long as it’s not boat or floating surface
You should put a spoiler tag, I think
Don Krieg was only put down on-screen by the future pirate king. Enough said.
the entire spiel of "I don't need big sword to defeat you, I can even use little sword" is not exactly subtle but man is it effective
The “Sorry I don’t have anything smaller” line was such a burn. It’s so great that Zoro can pull off similar stuff as well now.
Hawkeye has so many bangers in that exchange.
"I'm not the kind of fool who hunts rabbits with a cannon."
"You're a little frog croaking in your puddle, time you learned how big the world is."
Guy didn't need any blades, his words were sharp.
I really love how often One Piece reminds the readers of that. Baratie, Long Ring, Shabaody through Marineford, Oda has never been shy about showing that as strong as our characters seem, they're still not at the peak yet. There's still farther for them to go.
I always point to Zoro vs Mihawk as a text book example of how to set up a lot
Always being a bigger fish
How to properly humble but respect a character
How to be protected in a loss
How to show more while doing less
Like Mihawk introduction couldn’t have been done any better
I love it for the fact that it was a defining character development arc for Zoro. He needed to face him in order to become a stronger swordsman.
Also, Mihawk def would’ve did damage at Marineford had it been him vs the Marines.
And it’s a boat/restaurant!
… I’ll see myself out.