Overwatch
Juno nerfs are a swing and a miss
Yeah Blizzard, idk what your though process is on this Juno nerf in stadium. You really swang and missed with this, she's still going to be hyper meta and an absolute monster in round 3+.
Discussion
So I just played a game lastnight where my teammate Juno DOMINATED. I got to spectate her a few times when I died. And POTG showed me what I thought was the issue… her being able to use speed boost ring and self speed boost.. like 3 speed boosts in a second. She was FAST and hunted down enemies with ease.
Here’s the real issue:
In Stadium, some people are Masters or GM, and some people are Bronze. Some people have hundreds of hours on a specific Stadium build, some have never played the mode at all. Some people can two tap Juno out of the sky no problem. Others can’t hit her once.
How about we don’t place them in matches together?
Real. I just checked my last game cus every single one has felt terrible today. Enemy team was a masters stack while I was solo queue and none of my teammates higher than gold
this is legitimately going to just make me stop playing the mode. no skin is worth feeling this miserable
Facts.
In that same game, our orisa had played her first ever overwatch match. They were duod with our other dps, who told us it was their first match. Orisa barely scratched 1000 damage a round. Early on it was 400 a round.
I’m masters 5, and idk what the juno was but it had to be similar in rank. So how we all got on the same team… yeah. I really think overwatch should take into account ranked and or hidden mmr for initial placements.
I feel like we might see some of that when Unranked releases for stadium.
Some people can two tap Juno out of the sky no problem. Others can’t hit her once.
Fucking Ashe mains...
I don't think youve seen this Juno build in action. The way Juno flies around is not trackable by most players, unless the Juno is doing some really stupid shit. Just because someone is master+ doesnt mean they are some aim freak.
Juno with blink boosts is like tracer+pharah+mercy levels of evasive. That shit doesn't belong in the game.
She's a monster, stinger damage shouldn't be ability type, and blink boots with ironclad procs too much, I don't even get hyper healer before R5, she's that tanky
Rika mentioned
nipah~
You take Hyper Healer for the team's sake, not yours. Juno's damage is piss poor until rounds 4 or 5, her healing gets worse as the game goes on, too, because she's not speccing in to WP to boost it, and her AP only affects torpedoes, and Juno will not be spamming them in the stinger build. She does stack AP on round 3+ for Kitsune, but TTT's damage isn't affected by AP nor WP, the ability damage done by stinger is laughable, because wow you can do like 14 damage instead of 10 with it by the time you take it! Wow! A non stacking 14 damage over 1 second! You're taking Stinger for the Cybervenom proc and uptime, not because it's damage is actually good. Cybervenom's healing debuff is what lets Kitsune & TTT shine.
But still. This build requires the Juno to be able to aim. It requires a competent player to wield, and if you can't aim with her, you won't be the menace that people are fearing. You're just a bad Juno with sub 1k healing and fuckall mitigation. If you're in a lobby where everyone is equally as skilled, you'll find yourself being forced in to more of a healer role again, and won't be getting those solo flank teamwipes everyone fears, because people know how to counter you and focus you in the late game. If you are being punished by this build, you were not where you should be. And I don't mean you were just out of position. I mean you are probably in a match vs a Juno far above your skill level, and it's the matchmaker's fault, not yours. Blizzard is punishing skill instead of fixing their match maker, and it's awful.
how did this turn into me being awful. kitsune (which doesn't require aim) and survivability on r3 already lets me go on solo flanks and kill everything, always top damage. I haven't checked how worth the stinger damage is, I can do it tomorrow but it's been working out.
I figured ring is more to keep my team up but usually I can carry through a couple losses, so I try to pack all the damage I can
Luckily I haven't faced a Juno pulling off what I've been doing but if I can anyone can. Sure matchmaking is bad but no character (a healer at that) lets me get away with this
I wasn't trying to call you bad, I was saying if people can't aim they're going to be a bad Juno. And if you're dominating with the build, congrats. Chances are, you're up against people who shouldn't be in your match. That was kind of my point. If you can go soloyolo 1vX on round 3 and just stomp from there on out, it's because you have a lot of new or unfamiliar players. Kitsune and TTT do require aim. But that's a whopping 4 shots out of 12 of her burst that need to hit. Good aim? No. But aim nonetheless. Especially when Kitsune gets eaten by any teammate who can be healed. The build isn't busted, it's the matchmaker. Torpedo build was busted. That was the definition of no brain no aim spam to win. Once you actually get in to a level playing field, or go up against another Juno who is of your rank and skill, you'll understand. Or a competent infinite self heal Mercy or Lucio. Yes, the stinger build is good. It's solid. But it is dependent on the player's skill and on how scuffed the match maker was. But it's not an instant "I Win" button or one where you turn your brain off. Keep playing, and you'll eventually get it.
Skill on 3 shots out of 12 on a hitscan, there's no fall off either :/ my aim is really nothing special. And I'm often on deep angles so my team doesn't eat up the shots. Again sure matchmaking is bad but I couldn't pull off this stuff on other characters.
I can keep playing but even if I reach legend I'll still get placed with people around gold/plat so I can't really get the test you say
And your posts are precisely why I'm saying matchmaker is busted. You claim the build is busted, and that's only because you've not had your ass handed to you by an actual competent team yet. You're thriving with it because the game keeps putting new or low skilled players in to your games that you can exploit. When you actually come up against a fair fight, you'll understand exactly what I mean when I say it's not the build that's busted. It's the match maker. It might take time for you to get there, especially if you're boosting off of the calibration. But you'll get there. You'll understand exactly what I mean. This build is good against bad players. It's okay against those of equal skill. It's awful against someone better than you, in either game sense or mechanical skill.
It's awful against someone better than you, in either game sense or mechanical skill.
This is false. A t500 reaper will simply get fodderised by a diamond blink boosts Juno. There is no interaction between their two skills.
I don’t understand the hype around stinger. It’s fine early game but falls off heavily late game (an extra 20 DPS when everyone has 400+ HP doesn’t seem that great, especially since it doesn’t apply cyber venom — at least from when I last checked)
Blink boots into mark and 3 tap and Fusion Drive still seems superior, I guess you can add stinger on to that but I don’t think it’s worth it. Double torp as first power helps generate more cash with increased damage and healing output and never falls off since you’re building AP anyway. Blink boots as second power into mark and 3 tap Fusion Drive. Then hyper ring overhealth for extra tankiness to secure duels against DPS and sustain a bit more since ur healing falls off a bit more in later rounds. Stinger is the last thing I’d add to this build, but I think reduced ring cooldown is better anyway
The issue is getting 25 health every second
Ah, so we agree that Mercy pockets shouldn’t exist?
Idk why ur getting downvoted this was funny asf lol
Going down too 75 still doesn't make a difference. Being able use ironclad exhaust ports, With Lumerico Fusion Drive is whats making her a meance. She can dive backlines with blink boots giving her overhealth and shields. The Hyper RIng is just extra cherry on top.
Stinger also I will expect be nerfed soon. The fact the Three Tap Tommy Gun and Mark of Kistune give it huge burst. Compined with fact Stinger now applys debuffs like Cybervenom and Liquid Nitorgen. She has become a flying tracer who can't get all her health back with one blink boot dash. That buffs her weapon. Mercy or any backline dps will get shredded by Juno who focuses on rushing them.
They need to rework her powers and make something with wp scaling, is just boring how nothing on juno is good with wp besides the critical one
Stinger and Mediblaster is fun. But stinger doesn't wake off until round 4 or 5. As its big cash investment. And your hurting team without using hyper ring heal or blink boots to survive with ironclad. Pulse torpedo got nerfed. I have won every game against a torpedo juno as blink boots is way better and more impactful.
Those are definitely words.
Lumerico Fusion Drive isn't that good to be honest, I stopped buying it. Getting Long Range Blaster is just better for more damage (I did the math you end up doing like 20~ more damage or something). Its Ironclad Exhaust Ports and the Hyper Healer that does the main work. You can't nerf Ironclad Exhaust Ports because the only other hero its good with is Mercy
This nerf matters more than people think because Hyper Healer scales with AP so it won't scale nearly as much. You should take 1 less bullet from Cassidy and Freja on round 6/7 before you die which is a big nerf. Soldier will also need less bullets to gun you down and if hes going visor build it was already pretty difficult.
For some reason people are allergic to buying the item that does more damage to airborne enemies, which is just a hard counter to this build. Every time the enemies buy this item I flop over immediately lmao.
Bro Fusion Drive is amazing on Juno. Like you gotta think about it as an epic survival item that also gives AP. Martian Mender gives 25hp, 12hp/s for a 400hp hero, and 10% cdr for 10k. Fusion Drive gives 50 armor, 25hp/s of armor/shields, and 15% AP for 10k. Stack Exhaust Ports with it and you now have a constant ~50hp/s.
If you're still dying then you just pivot into permaflight (you should always do this anyways + it also gives 10% damage reduction), because Stinger/Tommygun/Kitsune all have no falloff vs hitscan heroes that do. Torpedo Glide still hasn't been touched and is an insane 3rd power with permaflight, so Hyper Healer was (and still probably is) the 4th power you pickup on round 7 when selling Exhaust Ports for your 6th epic item.
Probably a mix of ego and complacency. "If I do better I should be able to win" + simple reluctance to try out the new item in a real match = low adoption rate.
Yeah I started taking the airborne item and it's amazing to help kill Juno and Mercy much faster in later rounds when they get tankier.
No, they're right. As a juno player that hyper ring overhealth is ESSENTIAL at making me an immortal after round 3
Then I can focus on more damage
Instead of nerfing the build that requires gasp actual skill and game mechanics, maybe they should stop putting rookies and novices in to all-star and legend lobbies. You were taking Hyper Healer at round 3 to help your team with heals, not yourself. She only comes alive on round 5 when you can fully take TTT, Kitsune, and Cybervenom. Round 4 if you're actually good with her. The build is actually pretty shit against any competent Mercy, Moira, or Lucio, too, up to round 5. You do such shit damage until round 4/5 that they can just outheal you and keep the entire team alive in the process, as long as people aren't trying to do an epic 1v5 with a shit build (which, surprise, only happens with new/incompetent players).
If you are getting deleted on round 3 by a Juno who only has TTT or Kitsune, paired with Hyper Healer & BB+Ironclad, you're the problem, not her. She has fuckall damage still and the problem with her is the shield regen. Juno can't cancel the short boosts with BB. You have two options because of this. Either run to your team or the nearest healthpack. Run her away from her ring, wait for the overhealth to disappear. She won't have it on cooldown for another 8-9 seconds after her overhealth poofs, so all you have to deal with is a wet noodle that has minor health regen reliant on constant boost uptime. Since Juno can't cancel her flight with BB, you can easily predict her, too. Just keep her in motion. Don't try and duel her in a stationary position where she can just dart around you. Bait her to chase you. She will be forced to either dart off to cover and give you the opportunity to escape, or she'll tunnel vision you and you just shoot the braindead Juno flying in a straight line at you, and enjoy the extra bit of cash earned before eliminating her. It's incredibly easy to out DPS her heals at this point, so long as you can aim. And even moreso if you're actually grouped with someone.
Blizzard needs to fix the stadium matchmaker, not nerf Juno because competent players are being matched with beginners that shouldn't be there. This build actually requires some semblance of aim to effectively use. If you're at a rank where wow, someone can actually aim, don't punish them for being able to do so. Get little jimmy support main, who is playing tank on his first ever game of stadium, out of the match full of people familiar with the mode. They're admitting it themselves with these patch notes. They are punishing skilled, high rank players, because the matchmaker is putting low skill and new to the mode players in who have zero idea how to deal with or counter someone who is familiar with the mode and the hero. Yes, I'll have to wait longer to be paired with similar skilled players. No, I don't really care if that means I get a decent competent match that everyone can enjoy. The build is not the issue. The matchmaker is.
Absolutely agree with this comment.
One problem; Blizzard can’t seem to commit to either Stadium being a casual mode or a competitive mode. As such, they have to appease casuals by nerfing higher skill builds and ensuring cheesy low skill builds are almost equally as viable, to stop casuals getting demolished by more skilled players.
This is why you have builds like AP Soldier with helix rockets that are essentially hydrogen bombs, Ashe getting 7 ults per round with AP lava builds, and Mei’s coulder build.
The fix for the matchmaker you're asking for would result in 30 minutes queues for supports. So not a nerf to Juno but a nerf to the entire role
Which is again, a failing on blizzard's part. They shouldn't have delayed QP stadium, and they need to not do rank resets every season. People in higher ranks have always expected longer queue times, even in regular comp. Does it suck waiting? Sure. But I would rather wait and be paired with competent players knowledgeable about the mode rather than have to deal with players unfamiliar with it. I don't care if blizz says it's fine that it's their first ever mode because in regular comp they might be at a similar skill level. Stadium is not regular comp. It doesn't carry over like regular comp.
This comment will get nuked for speaking the truth
Yep, I’ve been saying this since Stadium came out and people have downvoted me to hell.
Probably. All I can say is that people need to try it for themselves and see. If they have good game mechanics, they'll do well with the build. If they don't, the build will feel awful and they'll be almost a throw pick, usually because they won't be burst healing the team with hyper ring, only themselves, and won't land the shots to secure eliminations. The build thrives when in the hands of someone with aim and when people are incompetent and out of position, but falters with aimlets or a coordinated team, or one that has at least two people who know how to focus you.
The build seriously isn't the problem, it's the matchmaker putting people where they shouldn't be. This nerf doesn't hurt Juno, it hurts her team. Juno doesn't need that extra 25 health to punish someone out of position or obviously new/unaware. But she does need that potential 100 health for her team. People already thought Juno was troll/throw picking with the build because her healing numbers look like shit consistently throughout, even though you can just look at her mitigation and see that she's probably out mitigated your tank (and the enemy's) the entire round from hyper healer, since the overhealth goes towards mitigation and not healing for whatever reason. If they wanted to hurt Juno, they would go for Ironclad or blink boosts. Not hyper healer. So not only are competent Juno players punished for the broken matchmaker, the team is, too. The fact that so many people here think you should be using hyper healer on yourself, and that's what's getting you the elims, just goes to show how little people understand the build. Hyper Healer is your team burst heal to make up for your lack of focused healing and lack of auto aim torpedo spam. It's your escape option for when you take a bad duel. It's not what's giving you elims, and if you NEED hyper healer to secure your elims, you're doing it wrong. Your positioning is bad. TTT, Kitsune and Stinger aren't affected by falloff. If the bullet hits, the abilities trigger at full strength. What is actually killing enemies is your aim in conjuction with TTT and Kitsune, not you being at ~600HP for 3 seconds. If you can't aim, the health does nothing for you other than let you get away after fucking up.
People already thought Juno was troll/throw picking with the build because her healing numbers look like shit consistently throughout
Yeah, I reached all-star this season with 12 losses. 5 of those were because of leavers on my team. I have chat off, so can't see the people screaming in chat for healing but in 4 of those 5 lost games the person who left was also the person spamming healing pings all game, so one can imagine they were pissed at me for "not healing" while I was playing my build correctly (not to mention they usually died with poor positioning)
And I agree with your comments on hyper healer; the survivability on myself was nice, sure, but I'm only ever using it selfishly when I'm on a particularly deep angle under pressure, most of the time I'm throwing it towards my team then flying away from it anyway. My own healing is pretty damn weak and the burst overhealth from the hyper ring was usually enough to keep my team alive long enough for a bit of triage and then me or them to win the fight they're in.
get good mentality is exactly why everyone plays with muted chats
overwatch playerbase is a bunch of arrogant jerks lmao, “no bro that build isnt OP tbecause Im actually strong and good enough to deal with it, git gud, its not the juno build that hundreds of players are complaining about that is wrong, its the actual complainers because they’re incapable of having fun when a Juno just flies away”
you ever think that maybe people want to play the other less mobile/less ranged heroes too? should everyone just queue for stadium with the idea that their might be a really good juno and so they should go Dva/soldier/cass/juno/moira every time to combat it?
Brother, we’re not on opposite sides. I want casual players to have fun and every hero to be viable so that players who like them can enjoy the game too.
I just think you guys are directing your anger at the wrong people. You shouldn’t get mad at a player for being very good with a certain hero/build. You should be mad at the matchmaking system that keeps placing you against them.
Casuals and tryhards shouldn’t face each other in Stadium in the same way bronze and GM players don’t face each other in comp.
nah this is fucking hilarious, you couldnt come off as more of a pompous jerk if you tried, there are literal GM supports (IE, Arx_UK, probably the best non-pro moira alive) that have been on the record saying how fucking busted juno is meanwhile youre still saying get good
I’m a Diamond 1 support, Diamond open challenger and Legend support both seasons of stadium, I am quite literally (and by normal distributions of a bell curve) in the top 20th percentile of the overwatch playerbase, telling me to git even gooder to combat a Juno is crazy.
Insane that you started your post saying we’re not on opposite sides and then doubled down on being an arrogant ass gamer.🤦♂️
It’s honestly crazy that I don’t see 2 Junos in every game doing the stinger/boots build. It’s unbelievably overpowered, I’m shocked they didn’t nerf the boots.
Because it's an extremely stealthy build. Not a lot of youtubers talk about it and in game she plays exactly like a flying tracer so a player who sucks at aiming & flanking won't get much use out of this build.
Furthermore in my experience, nobody really expects the Juno to be the one that completely slaughters half the enemy team roster. I had someone say in a match that S76 is OP because he alone killed a Dva & a Zen...while I erased Mercy, Ashe and Junkrat out of existence from a single flank.
Or because she’s balanced and only really good in the hands of a competent player? Instead of nerfing builds because a good player can be very good with them, let’s worry about placing those skilled players against people equally skilled.
I mean they nerfed her torpedo pretty hard, if they also nerf blink boots into the ground without giving her an alternative, she’s going to be dumpstered into F tier.
Her torpedo was never a core source of her damage output, its strength is in how hard it seeks around corners, nerfing torpedo hurts her at lower ranks where you see more zero aim players but in Stadium, Stinger and Medimaster still carry her DPS with a raw weapon power build, and literally the biggest thing stopping people from just doing that immediately is how good Blink Boosts and Rally Ring can be for mobility and survivability
Lumerico is also just generally very good on her, but again, this is the issue, she's just an underrated raw damage assassin sitting in the support role (like, people acknowledge how good she is but I don't often see it noticed that a lot of her value comes from what her actual primary fire can do in combination with her insanely good mobility cooldown durations)
brother on stadium release i could fully one shot a full health dps with torpedos
they were 100% a core source of damage
dont be dumb. you REALLY think that Blink boots is the only think switching her from F tier to S tier must pick unplayable against? destroying blink boots would turn her into a balanced character, she's disgustingly broken.
Lol this is all they did?
Yea, saw that coming. Not where I expected the nerfs to be though honestly. Really gotta grind to allstar before the Martian gets nerfed to F tier because some people are good with her lol
Weird buff and nerf tbh. I think healer was fine at 50 and had so much mitigation. So the 100 was unexpected. I find the blink boots much more impactful. But honestly, I have to hope my team survives and my other support can carry the heals. Build takes time to grow as opposed to medi or torpedo
Nowhere near enough, will still two tap everyone
Ngl, ever since they added the extra damage to enemies in the air item I think she's fine, she's still really strong and an absolute beast late game, but that's the point of Stadium, at least the counterplay is really strong too.
That’s only if you have hitscan heroes on your team that can deal with her. If you have damage heroes like junkrat and mei that basically can’t touch juno, you’re 100% screwed since she’s free to do what she wants.
In a way I guess it’s like dealing with freja. If she has free reign of the sky there’s pretty much nothing you can do about it. I think the introduction of the anti air item was a huge success at enabling hitscans to deal with flyers which is good for stadium balance. Though even as a freja user, I hope they give more anti air options to the likes of reaper and mei because it ends up being very one sided unless they’re way better than me and get creative.
At that point it's just on your team. There's a reason why they give you almost a minute to pick your heroes, you have to think about your team comp in stadium and having a hitscan role DPS is essential.
True, but I already expect players to not pick Reaper, Mei, Junk and, to a lesser degree, Genji if their teammate doesn't pick a long range character, or else there's literally nothing that can be done against Mercy, Juno and Freja. Even tho it's not a serious ranked mode, I do expect people to do the bare minimum in team comp.
Also important to note that Juno, Ana and Zen are also really good at taking down fliers, so it doesn't have to be just the dps responsibility
I'm one tricking Freja (still at all-stars 4) and I gotta completely change your build if the opponent is building the anti air item, which I think is cool and promotes exactly what I enjoy in Stadium, play and counterplay, which is why I agree with you that every dps should have at least something to deal with air characters, so that they also have counterplay opportunities.
I'd like to see powers/items that give:
Projectile speed to Mei's secondary
Less gravity to Junk's primary
A skill shot on a cooldown for Reaper (incentivizing AP Reaper)
Yeah not having at least one of the hitscans in general does make your team vulnerable to a lot of things unless you pop off. It feels a bit limiting but they’re staples for a reason.
Reaper already has an item to let him fly in wraith form so he’s actually really close to being able to combat flying heroes. I think he just needs an extra dedicated item or maybe a shift in build/playstyle to fight in the air.
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Solution is just give soldier to do bonus damage to airborne enemies power, extra attack speed and maybe some cooldown or ammo.
“Flying tracer” 💀
I really don’t understand why people go so mad over this build. First of all as many people here already said it’s mainly a matchmaking thing. Yes this build can be insane and feel frustrating to play against cause if you’re running into a good Juno with this build you’re getting rolled at round 5+. But a good cass, soldier, ash, zen, Ana, mercy, Moira can all make your life as Juno extremely hard. Also I see almost nobody complaining about almost unkillable ap soldiers with one shot helix or moiras who can also be pretty much unkillable while getting a lot more cash, having better early game, easier ults and insane healing output, all that by basically just spamming orbs. The main problem is that you can be gold or below running into masters or up. But in the end that shouldn’t really be a problem too, cause that’s how it is if somebody’s better than you, you’ll get rolled and you can’t really expect to reach the highest rank if you’re not good enough. I really think people are exaggerating a bit cause on my way to legend I’ve barely ran into blink boost Juno’s so she cannot be as oppressive as some people make her to be. I ran this build a lot cause it’s the best way to solo carry but again if you’re running into a good team you will have a lot of damage in the later rounds but still low value cause people will know how to punish you and will have builds to counter you the best way possible.
Across all modes I really wish they'd just increase her hurt box. For the fucking life of me she's the only God damn character I cannot hit. She's so squirmy and petite it's insane.
Cool I can still play Juno.
It's right there in the developer comment though, "At higher MMR tiers". They are only nerfing Juno where she is an issue in high elo.
As if that exists in Stadium with the wide matchmaking?
Right, I’m pro 4 and have been getting novice teammates while of course the enemy team gets Cassidy or Soldier who you might think are cheating.
Yes, because the build requires skill to play. And those having issues against it are in games they should not be in. The match maker is broken, not the build. They are admitting that they are punishing high skill players and their team (because nerfing hyper healer hurts the team heals, not Juno's self healing), because they want quick match times and will shove two rookies and a novice on the enemy team while you are in all star. Of course the players who don't understand stadium are going to have a bad time. Don't punish the player for that, fix the damn match making so it doesn't happen to begin with.
Don't nerf our cute, well-beloved golden child.
How about nerf Ana in comp before Juno gets nuked and made mid in stadium too.
I think she's gotta get nerfed in the base game honestly. Shes so slippery already that stadium makes it even worse. Slowing her down while in her flying mode, would probably work. Marvel rivals has a bunch of flyers but i wouldnt say they're as bad because they're all slow.
No Mercy changes either just compound this. Meaningless patch. Buffing Junkrat doesn’t even do anything either since he can’t deal with Mercy/Juno.
'Extremely slippery'. :)
I kind of get why. I think in general, if a hero is really strong I'd rather they start trying to nerf around the parts of them that are "extra" rather than their core fantasy (mobility in Juno's case)
I don’t like this, this philosophy has resulted in baffling decisions like keeping Sojourn’s 1 shot for ages. Gotta address the problem at its root.
Stat nerfs > Gameplay nerfs always. No need to dumb heroes into ground unless really blatant.
Thats how you end up with Sombra who is going on her what? 3rd rework? Because we want to address numbers and not the inherit issues
Well there are always exceptions as certain mechanics can be too hard to balance out or to feel fun to play as and against. Balance wise Sombra was rarely OP, but it's just unfun.
What do you call a hero with a power that gives her extremely short CD mobility that makes her fly out of range of half the heroes with extremely fast move speed.
Not even tracer is that degenerate. And she is supposed to be the "fast" hero.
Tracer is that degenerate tho. Shes extremely broken rn and does what Sombra does, but better. Having an extra HP bar every 12 seconds > invisibility. Shes way worse than Sombra.
I was talking about blink boosts Juno.
Sombra is just a poorly designed concept for this game. Invisibility and the ability to teleport away is just too strong. Add her ability to hack targets and she is just anti-fun. They should just remove her invisibility entirely and buff her damage. Make her like tracer.
Then she would just be Tracer. I think she should be slightly visible when moving and invisible when standing still.
Sombra is already overly easy to detect for people who arent room temp IQ.
The "issue" with Sombra (and Tracer, and a few other heroes) is that there is a presumed/implied disadvantage that you need to be in for the character to function.
Tracer is designed with the expectation that you are human and will whiff shots. Her entire design to an extent hinges on that human element. If you could consistently just hit Tracer, Tracer starts to fall apart.
In the same way Sombra is designed that you dont get to have consistent scouting on her positioning. That is part of the point of the character. Its how her advantage actually carries weoght
If you wanna design Sombra away from stealth, give her tangible rewards to suit her playstyle or just the raw value (which is similar to what they moved toward in her first rework)
You dont like invis? Okay she can be "transparent" but have 30% Damage Reduction and no audio while stealthed and for 3 seconds after unstealth. Now you can "see her coming" but you actually need to s outplay the Sombra and she has a tangible advantageous state.
Being able to walk from point A to B on the map is not as significant a strength as people make it out to be. Soldier 76 been doing that for like 7+ years and been ass the entire time. And he has more in his base design than Sombra. Especially pre rework.
She either needs more lethality, which is what Opportunist being reworked and Virus were for, staggers/telegraphs some of her lethality but raised her offense. Probably goes hand in hand with removing some of the delay Sombra has before she can act when she "Unstealths"
More survivability so that she can stay in the fight after reveal or engage. Which is what my idea leans toward.
More manueverability, which is where Tracer tends to lean a bit and is more "typical" of a Flanker. Remember when Translocator had a 5s CD? That thing people REALLY DIDNT LIKE to fight? Or when it had 0.1s of Fade In instead of the current 0.3s?
We have literally been in every one of these directions for the hero to a degree and they all "work"
Issue is people dont wanna compromise. They make her soft mobility weaker and fix her dps "why she so strong and get kills so easy" they let her bounce around in fights "why she so mobile and annoying" they let her stay alive in fights or disengage "why dont she die, she just goes unpunished"
Its like pick a damn poison guys, she has to be good at something and we spent all of OW1 knowing that CC/Utility was the shittiest option for all parties. And early OW2 learning that Sombra leaned out of utility was somehow even scarier.
Tracer doesn’t entirely rely on the enemy whiffing shots, her skills also directly control whether or not she gets hit.
Yeah. but Tracer leans more into the human error than not as i understand it.
You dont dodge "because you blinked" so much that because you blinked into a blind spot, or in ways that are hard to keep up with it makes it hard for human reactions to keep up.
And of course it can be used for things like taking cover and disengaging. Things that are less inconsistent.
Imo Tracer and Sombra both have this in common, most mobility heroes (really everyone below 250 HP) do-
But its part of what i consider their frustration factor.
Heroes who a significant part of their kit design, is making the other person feel like a dipshit or like they cant do basic shit?
Yeah people dont like those.
If youre a long time OW player you know all of em. Sombra, Tracer, Genji, Lucio, OW1 Symm and Mei, Pharah, Moira, Kiriko, Doom, Zarya, Ball.
Dont charge Doom/Zarya. Theyre full charge all the time.
Turn for Ball, man has 0 deaths
225 HP Gank is twerking while they melee you to death.
Mei and Symm in OW1 Holding Beam on you and watching you panic whiff 30 shots when it only takes 2 to kill them.
TLDR. Balance is wierd. And Fun doesnt really always directly align to it
What they need to do is reduce her reliance on invis for everything. She needs it for damage, mobility and survivability. It’s badly thought out and made even worse by giving her opportunist back.
If invis was purely a mobility or survivability tool she wouldn’t be anywhere near as annoying but that’s not the case and putting a timer on invis isn’t the solution.
When they first unveiled her virus rework a lot of sombra players (myself included) knew it was destined to fail because they didn’t address her over reliance on invis.
Why blizzard even thought an invisible assassin that can burst you coming out of stealth was a good idea I’ll never know.
When the virus rework first arrived it wasn’t even that bad, her virus was weighted in favour of the dot giving people more time to react and hack did barely anything for her damage (an extra 10 impact dmg I believe) so sombra wasn’t spamming hack on every encounter like she has too now.
But no blizzard nerfed her hp and that in turn meant they had to buff her damage, buff the gun? No, buff virus impact damage instead so it does a ridiculous amount of instant damage coming out of invis negating the whole point of virus being a dot.
It’s just bad decision after bad decision in regard to sombra. It doesn’t help that they ignore the feedback from good sombra players, as I said earlier many of them knew this train wreck was coming.
One more thing we need to quit balancing around low elo. Low ranks have no idea how to play the game.
On the other hand, depending on where you draw the line, lower ranks may be like 75% of the player base
Gold and back
You'd make the game worse for the majority by cutting them out.
Fine with me
I would rather see the TP removed. The problem is having a silence, invis, and TP all on one hero. Any one of them could be removed to make her less cancer and IMO the TP is the least integral to her identity.
Imo tp is the most integral to her identity. Do you realise how much she’d lose without tp? Mobility would be shot, without addressing her reliance on invis you wouldn’t make her less annoying just flat out worse and what would you replace it with?
Invis is literally the cancer that spread out to her entire kit. It makes hack way more annoying since it can happen from anywhere at anytime. Damage is way more frustrating because she can assassinate you from anywhere at any time and the one ability that was nerfed was tp when the virus rework arrived and nothings changed. Why? Because the issue has always been her reliance on invis for everything. With opportunist dmg bonus it makes her even more reliant on hack, thus more reliant on invis to get that hack.
The worst part is invis just keeps flying under the radar because it’s not direct. No people blame hack, blame virus and blame tp yet never blame the one ability that makes her entire kit a nightmare to deal with.
I'm not talking so much about "which ability would be the most harmful if removed" so much as "which of these abilities could be removed in another Sombra rework without effecting her hero identity" and for that I think the answer is the TP.
Personally I would have her Invis work more like Spy from TF2 where maybe the TP instead forces her to go invisible for a second or so (even when taking damage) after which normal invisibility rules apply. Then you give her some compensatory buffs (there's a lot you could do with this) and you're in a much better state.
Without the TP, yes Sombra can still engage from anywhere, but now you can actually punish her for doing it. Any hero with mobility has a decent chance of hunting her down, but this is skill based on both sides as Sombra only has a brief window to juke an enemy with good movement before they risk being revealed.
This change essentially requires that Sombra has to win her engagement in order to live. Sombras are rewarded for correctly picking engagements because their ability to run away has been reduced.
I think you could 'fix' her by removing invis but doing so just makes her a worse Tracer. I would rather see TP removed because it would make for a more interesting hero.
Then she would have to actually do damage. Tracer is just as anti fun as sombra lol
Reddit go 15 mins without a braindead Sombra take challenge
Keep thinking that, and then keep wondering why Sojourn has been perma meta since the release of the game. Getting rid of her headshot multiplier on right click needs to happen now because it's too powerful alongside mercy pocket to allow her to be viable in any other way. It soaks far too much power budget and causes a very unhealthy playstyle of farming off the tank to jump in the air and one shot someone behind the tank.
Unrelated but you'd think the girl that's been dominating the meta would get better or more frequent skins right?
Her skins are just assorted jobs
She's not as hot as the other characters so they put her on the side. They don't care about meta, they care about selling skins and Kiriko is hot so they give her a lot of skins. Since this game is free, all they care about at the end of the day is people spending money on cosmetics, and more people will buy Kiri and Widow skins than her.
Untapped Market tbh. She's a badde fr
What they could do in my view is remove the raingun's headshot, but make it do double damage to objects, so it would have a new role without making it annoying for other players, and it would have a similar objective with the main idea they had when they were developing it.
As another example, this is exactly why the best tanks have been bouncing between Orisa, Hog, Dva, and eventually Mauga for the duration of the game. For some reason, the dev team just refuses to admit that number changes don't make these high armor, high sustain, and in DVa's case, high mobility, fat DPS characters less of a miserable slog to play as, and even worse to play against.
It's reason why Kiriko has been literally the best character in the game for 3 years straight, completely and totally inundated with overloaded tools - a cleanse that grants invincibility and also heals, the ability to flank, the ability to teleport to teammates who are flanking to back them up or teleport back to her team if she gets caught while she's flanking, a DPS ult that doubles everyone's rate of fire and cuts CD times in half, and a borderline hitscan weapon that, for some inane fucking reason, they literally BUFFED sometime last year, as if she couldn't already do enough. (Although this could be argued that they just refuse to nerf the new main character of the game.)
So, nerf her headshot damage then, best nerf. Removing, say, slide, or making railgun charge much slower is bad nerf. This would at least require Mercy to boost her.
No, you remove it and give her power in other ways. First off, that right click shouldn't even be able to be damage amped but since they want to commit to Mercy's unhealthy design with damage amp, it stays. They should remove her right click headshot, make her right click charge faster, and use it as a support ability to her damage rather than the main damage source. Make it a finisher rather than just a straight full hp execute. More consistent left click damage, less burst damage.
Also reasonable, but you didn't remove actual mechanic see? You changed it's numbers basically, but you didn't break flow of "shoot, charge, slide and shoot be cool".
Yes I did, I removed the oneshot mechanic from it. That is an important mechanic to remove from the character, I'd be saying the exact same thing if you could damage amp Soldier rockets and 1 shot squishy targets, remove it and make his left click his main damage with right click being support damage like how it is right now.
Removing headshot multipliers from abilities is a HUGE mechanic removal, imagine if Widow couldn't get headshot multipliers on her sniper shot, that would remove a huge mechanic from that character. "shoot, charge, slide and shoot be cool" isn't the entire character right now, it's "shoot, charge, slide and shoot hitscan 1 shot hitscan lasers at backliners be cool". This is the exact same problem Freja has right now, she does incredibly overtuned amounts of burst damage from range for free with tons of mobility.
Sojourn has to be meta because there's too much sustain in the game and it's not just Sojourn it's burst damage in general. This is also why they buffed the dps passive and frankly I'd rather have a Sojourn in every game over a Widowmaker
Supports are too strong, s9 hp changes completely destroyed dive and burst damage in general so now the only dive dps we get thats good is tracer being overpowered while the other ones are trash, and the only burst damage that works just goes straight through the hp changes anyway like sojourn right click with amp or widow headshot. Burst damage divers need to be buffed to compensate, Genji should get 29 dmg shurikens and 125 on blade while removing the amp damage for blade so it's always 125, Echo should get either a primary fire damage buff or better right click damage, Sombra realistically should get better damage but make her hack less obnoxious to deal with. Supports don't have to worry about dive because of all the sustain and get out of jail free cards, making poke absolutely meta rn.
Thank god you're not in charge of game balance.
Yeah, if I was maybe supports would actually have to use their brains for once instead of giving out massive amounts of output with a fraction of the input. Tracer right now does good damage, the issue is her survivability due to her perks alongside the damage. Make her easier to kill and her damage makes sense, Genji follows the same problem. He can't have damage right now because you get 30% blade lifesteal, deflect healing, and 250hp. Ask any Genji player right now if they'd rather have increased shuriken and blade damage, while removing sustain and hp down to 200-225 and they'd answer yes in a heartbeat. Same with Cassidy, ask any Cassidy if they'd rather have better damage with lower hp and they'd say yes in an instant. Characters that walk forward and dive hard should do shit tons of damage while being made of glass, that's what makes them fun to play. Playing poke Genji or Echo is the exact opposite playstyle those players look for when choosing those characters, if I wanted to lob projectiles from range I'd just pick Junkrat Freja or Hanzo.
Dive comp doesn't need buffs thank you
Some Heroes are designed around some certain stuff. Taking Hanzos one shot away destroyed him. Some changes just dont work and I honestly believe they playtest their changes. Souj with no Burst just doesnt work or your turn her into 76. Same goes with Sombra without Invis or Lucio without speed. So you nerf other stuff to keep their identity but make them weaker overall
but sojourns in a state that shes is almost just better S76, because most of his pros dont make him better over her on the hands of a sufficiently mechanically skilled player specially after the perks which hers are some of the most busted. idk why they couldnt just make her 225 HP and change the double slide perk to idk, convert 50 HP of her to armor, move the ultimate overcharge to a major perk because thats also too strong, and make a less boring perk for the ammo one.
Thats why I said at first
See if reducing the 'lesser' part of their strength opens up enough weakness oppostunities, and then get to the actual core aspect if needed
It's not baffling when you realise that one shot is like 80% of their esports clips and they don't want to harm that source of advertising.
Well it's a good thing you aren't in charge of shit then
Have fun with your forever meta because devs are too afraid to nerf the “fantasy” of a character.
Yeah cool I will. There's always a meta, I'd rather listen to you complain about this one than the next one
i bet you play CS which is hardstuck in the same BS for nearly 3 decades now because the game itself is dumbed down to almost the most core basic an FPS can be and theres nothing really interesting in the game unless becoming the super tryhard aim master
Except they never really nerfed her "extras" either. Still ton of mobility, still 250hp.
You can’t really compare sojourns damage to Juno’s movement
Yes you can
You absolutely can if you just don't think about it.
Try hitting a flying Juno constantly with a projectile character 3x times with speed ring
I do regularly. I don't miss.
As a brig player?
Yeah. You don't notice all the brig players in your stadium games front lining and taking down Juno?
And I wasn’t invited
I really hope I can do this when Brig releases next season 🤣🤣
Not really, tracer movement is a 10x better comparison than sojourns damage
The devs literally acknowledged her nickname as 'Flying Tracer' in the patch notes, if any hero is functionally compared to Tracer in a capacity that isn't lesser, then they are EXTREMELY strong
Tracer is not sojourn lol, tracer is a much better comparison as she has high movement like Juno.
High movement and insane raw damage, Juno isn't Tracer if all she has are good mobility cooldowns, what has people calling her Tracer is that her raw weapon damage can be adjusted into actual DPS assassin territory, especially in Stadium and especially if you can click heads with Medimaster
*Tracer has also FREQUENTLY broken the game with her raw damage lol (she will be Terror Incarnate when she makes it to Stadium, I'm not ready😔). Like I said, it's kind of telling that the only thing stopping someone from clicking heads immediately is that extra hover charges is kind of a big part of what makes her Flying Tracer, and you get more value out of it in Round One, as opposed to Medimaster that you really have to scale for
It’s not just the mobility, though. Juno’s damage output is wack with mark of kitsune and three tap tommygun. In general, those items are way too strong imo.
I feel they need to make a stronger and a weaker version of the same items for many heroes.
D.Va doesn't benefit from cooldown reduction barely at all. It doesn't affect DM, and it barely affects boosters -- 50% cooldown reduction means you can Boost every 5.25 seconds instead of every 7 seconds. But on Orisa, 50% cooldown reduction affects all of her abilities, and cooldown items can make her Fortify go from 4s/15.5s of uptime (25% uptime), to 6s/7.25s (80% uptime) which is ludicrous.
Too bad this didn't apply to comp, where her range was gutted to 3 feet and her self defense got nuked.