I understand that people have a preference towards hybrid and escort maps but damn, it feels like I only play control when Lijiang or ilios is the option and there’s no hope of playing any flashpoint or push unless it lands on my one vote.
Yesterday 9/10 people in the lobby voted junkertown over Suravasa and Colosseo and acted like I’d committed war crimes when it landed on Suravasa. I just found it funny that people would rather play one of the worst escort maps than push or flashpoint.
I’m not really complaining, I can accept that I must be in the minority here if votes are happening like this regularly, I just personally find it baffling that people are overwhelmingly voting for Havana, Junkertown and Circuit in my games rather than playing any other gamemode.
My issue is not the maps that are being picked. Like I understand that there are maps more liked than others (I like them too).
But good lord, that doesn’t mean I want to play them all the damn time.
I hate voting/ban systems because they just turn the game into a boring/repetitive popularity contest
There are many reasons why I stopped playing CS ages ago, but playing de_dust every frigging round was definitely high on the list.
The games variety is its best feature and they keep adding things that make it harder and harder to actually get that out of it. Beyond annoying
Map voting in particular is NOT it
As much as I love some maps I would get tired if I played say kings row for even 30% of my matches.
Some call of duty games have a game mode dedicated to just playing the Nuketown and my mind never understood that.
Like yeah I love the map as well and it's super iconic but who is here getting back home from school/work, booting up the game and just playing on that one map the entire session and then quitting?
Map voting is about to make me a Kings Row hater LOL
Not really, but honestly I find myself dreading getting it in a line up some nights. I’m just so tired of playing that and Echinwalde. They’re good maps but they aren’t the ONLY good maps.
Kings Row has always been extremely mid. I truly will never understand why people praise that map like it's the second coming of Overwatch PVE
its even weirder because its always been a bad 5v5 map, its a good 6v6 map because you have enough mitigation resources to actually push past corners but in 5v5 its a straight line map with minimal off angles.
Seriously
Played 2 games back to back on El Dorado yesterday as a result of voting. Didn't hate the map before but I quickly got annoyed and it's on my radar now.
It's just called Dorado FYI
Lol thanks m8
Like yeah I love the map as well and it's super iconic but who is here getting back home from school/work, booting up the game and just playing on that one map the entire session and then quitting?
Me 😂 and then I'd do it again every session for the whole week lol
It’s a great map for grinding out upgrades.
I’m with you, I ain’t all that hot about map voting. Feels like it pushes the game into staleness, into more and more screens, and into just generally being locked into the same scenario every time.
Ya my immediate fear with map voting was that everyone would just vote for the same 3-4 maps… and that’s exactly what’s happened.
I am exactly where you are. I also prefer escort/hybrid/control but like. If you don't play any other mode ever you lose like 9 maps! I don't see why they don't group the cards more by type. The game should randomize the mode but let us pick the map. I know clash only has 2 maps but fine, make us vote between only the 2 and give no 3rd card. Flashpoint has 3 maps, fill all options with flashpoint and let us choose from that. Push has 4, take 3 and let us choose from those. We have lost game mode variety because of map voting but they could very easily fix it by not totally randomizing it on our end. If they control the mode but we pick the map, much more variety.
You mentioned the word random
Why on gods green earth is it even in mystery heroes
If you don't play any other mode ever you lose like 9 maps!
You say that likes it a bad thing! I'd happily delete 9 maps from this game if I could. Actually its worse than that, there's 13 maps in this game is never ever want to play on again
I do think it's bad. I love Kings Row like everyone but I've started playing the same maps 2 or 3 games consecutively. That's not good.
Sounds good to me
It is a bad thing, lol. Pretty much all of the maps have plenty of good and bad in them. I can't think of one, let alone thirteen, that I would completely erase.
Okay. I think plenty are just pure trash
They could easily increase the variety with map voting if they took the last 10 played maps of every player in the match and populated the selection with the 3 least played maps.
Similiar story, playing Mario Kart 8 online and always seeing Big Blue and Mute City picked by 10 out of 12 players. I liked these maps as well, but I was very burned out from them after playing them constantly for 5 years. The new DLC saved my sanity.
Although the rework of Numbani makes map voting less necessary for me. There is not even a map that I really hate anymore. I hope I don't get burned lut of King's Row, because I love this map.
I agree, just because I have a favourite map I don't want to play it every match. I played Gibraltar 3 times in a row a few days ago because the majority voted it. I think at the very least they should remove map votes for qp, but as much as I like hero bans, I hate the map voting altogether
i think the best way to do it is how cs does it, before u queue for a game u pick the game modes and maps u wanna play on and then u hit ready to play. matches u up with the other ppl who want to play the gamemode and map and thats that.
Yeah I really thought that's what they were gonna do instead of adding even more delay to the pre-game
It'll take longer to match tho, and worse rank matching too.
It could be more one than the other right? If you have worse matchmaking you won't increase the queue times by much, but if you want better matchmaking it will increase the queue times.
Only Blizzard knows how much it would impact both, I personally wouldn't mind in QP slightly more unfavourable games to keep the matchmaking quick if it's needed
I don't think it would work in comp
I think that is what they should have done, but they were probably afraid that the queueing would become too CPU intensive. They need to invest into multi queuing, though, in my opinion. People have been asking for this feature for a long time. Also, each map could be a different queue, then, technically. Admittedly, having map selection on player level would lead to hilarious issue when the players in the group can't agree on any map.
CPU usage is not at all a problem for queues. The problem is they don't want to fragment the player base more than it already is for all the different game modes. And ranked especially needs to be in one shared queue or else people will just farm ranks on their favorite map and not learn the game
I can only imagine what my masters queues would look like with how split people would be if you could queue certain maps and modes, that or no variety in what I play, which is almost worse
I feel like the mapvoting has added a new layer of stress to the game that it didn't have before. Like, the fact that people leave games when they dislike all 3 maps, or rage when a map they don't like has been picked. Now apparently if you >like< (i.e. have fun with) modes other than Escort, to some people it means you're a bad player (???). I don't know if that happened as much when we simply had no power to choose and had to deal with the maps the game gave us.
I have been getting so much hybrid/escort. So much.
I honestly don't have a map or a game mode I actually dislike, I enjoy them all in their own ways. I am, however, feeling a lack of variety since the implementation of map voting.
i found myself actually voting for maps I might not even like as much, just to open up the possibility of not playing the maps everyone else seems to want. Escort is the worst mode imo, Push way clear.
In a way, you can interpret these preferences negatively in a way. It seems to me that people who have experience with OW1 prefer the older maps and modes more often.
Didn't OW's player base massively go up with OW2? That should mean that even new players like the old modes more.
Players in general like Payload. But I imagine most players don't have much of a preference between Control, Push, and Flashpoint.
It seems to me that people who have experience with OW1 prefer the older maps and modes more often.
Can confirm, been here since 2016 and my top 10 favorite maps are entirely from OW1 and I hate every single new mode they've come up with in 2
Can't confirm, I've also been playing since 2016 and my favorite mode is flashpoint.
Ngl I'm kinda missing when the game would toss us into a random locale. The fun of Overwatch to me was never knowing where in the world you were headed to next but the voting system has kinda taken that away.
Fellow Suravasa enjoyer 🗿
Suravasa so fun, one of my fav maps in the game
Same. I actually love push maps. It’s one of my favorite modes. I actually hate control maps. I liked 2CP more. Lijang and Ilios are actually my two least favorite maps in the entire game lol.
I’m like warm on Flashpoint and Clash. I don’t hate them, but I much prefer payload/hybrid/push more.
Favorite maps are King’s Row, Eichanwald, Midtown, Junkertown, and Esperanza. I’m probably forgetting one.
I would agree that Control is the worst game mode, until they came out with Clash. Although both these modes are fine in Stadium.
Hybrid also sucks too.
My ratings would go Push > Flashpoints > Payload > Hybrid > Control
This is funny because my ratings would be reverse for OW1 with Assault in last place.
I respect this opinion quite a bit.
You are so real for this.
Clash is my favourite mode in game, guess how I feel?
Map voting is absolutely a good thing and I prefer the way they implemented it over other games like how R6 does it...
...but map voting shouldn't be in QP
disagree, I like choosing where I play in QP
A solution which works for everyone: let people choose which gamemodes/maps before they queue for QP, that way you only play what you want to play. All are selected by default, but you can untick a map or gamemode if you don't want to play it.
That would completely kill certain maps. You want the rest of the game to be the same four hybrid maps for all eternity? You think it's better if Clash and Flashpoint have 20 minute queues?
Somehow made an even more stupid suggestion lmao
Why should people be forced to play shit modes ? It's either this or get leavers every game.
If literally no one wants to play the maps, they won't be played.
You want maps to be played even if no one wants to play them? That's moronic idea lol. Next you'll be suggesting that people should be forced to play stadium every 3 games to keep the game mode alive.
If literally no one wants to play the maps, they won't be played.
That's not how it works. You're not asking people to decide which maps they dislike, you're telling them to decide which maps they like the most and then only playing in those.
Most people don't actually dislike modes like Push or Flashpoint, but the general playerbase loves Payload, so anything that goes against Payload will be seen less and less.
Perfect compromise. Shit it would be an upgrade to map voting even since I hate that the least voted still has a chance to win
Yep, I actually just vote for push, clash, and flashpoint to have a chance to play anything other than escort or hybrid for the 8th time in a row
i almost never vote flashpoint, i vote for the new map however almost everytime, not gonna get better at it not playing it.
I don't mind Push
Close enough. Welcome back Upward
Suravasa and oasis and new junk city are to be avoided for casual players. For me it’s because the maps are too spread out, I’m a solo, and getting filled with randoms/casuals who refuse to group up is exacerbated on those maps. Forget it if you’re going against a 3/4/5 stack and your team is 5 solos.
But to your point, I am rarely playing on those anymore. Def not a war crime to vote for suravasa lol but ya the consensus is we don’t like those maps. Too many casual players. Maybe it’s more even in comp? I have no idea.
I’m with you on that. Personally in your case OP I’d have voted either of the others over Junkertown. Hate that map
Push and Flashpoint are too big, you spend too long running across them which on slower characters is a nightmare and makes them much less playable. That said, they’re not bad, just less good, I actually like Colliseo as a map but I think that’s the smallest of the game mode.
Clash on the other hand is too prone to steamrolling, and again runs from spawn can be excessive at 3 point control and that can then make it feel really swingy rather than an actual fight, it’s just about pure momentum. Easily my least favourite game mode and the maps are awful, they try to have flanking but momentum is so important there’s really no time or space for that, so it’s just a deathball down the middle. Much worse version of 2CP where you could actually exploit flanks.
Thing is that for me the worst escort map is still in the B tier while the best push or flashpoint maps are barely scraping C tier.
Even if it's the worst of the options from the game modes I prefer it still beats the best from the game modes which I dislike playing.
From what I gathered, there's a clear idea of where you should position on hybrid/escort, whereas Flashpoint requires constant rotations and reading fights. Push is better than Hybrid/Escort, but players don't realize that yet.
Lots of people seem to disagree with my opinion. I really don't give a fuck, downvote me, tell me I'm wrong. It's falling on deaf ears.
Push has been around since the start of OW2, so I'm pretty sure people understand the concept well.
Colosseo used to be an awful map, with the big building blocking basically everything, but since they've opened paths everywhere, it went from shite to "OK".
Push has been around since the start of OW2, so I'm pretty sure people understand the concept well.
the idea of grouping up with your team has been around since before overwatch even existed and people still don't understand that concept, so i don't know what would make you say that.
REMOVE THE GLASS
Push has been around since the start of OW2, so I'm pretty sure people understand the concept well.
I think you're missing the forest for the trees. People for the most part understand how to play Push, but most players will always prefer Payload because its a much lower stress environment and the mode funnels teams together more often. There's also the fact that progress is a constant in Payload, so you're not going to have the enemy snowballing you and overtaking your progress, because you only need a single win to keep pushing into the next checkpoint.
A lot of people keep mistaking the general playerbase's apathy towards modes like Push and Flashpoint as hatred, when most people just really like Payload and will vote for it whenever available.
Hopefully the NJC/Suravasa reworks coming at midseason will help with the stigma somewhat.
Unless they make the map be a different mode, no, it won’t help.
Yeah there's nothing they can do to turn my opinion on fp around lol
This.
They could say: ball is unbannable and immune to cc on flashpoint, and I still wouldn’t play it.
I bet half these people that love flashpoint are the same mfers that cried so hard about 2cp that we have to go into arcade to play it. Map voting is working exactly as intended and I'm all for it.
This argument gets repeated so often and it's making less and less sense. It's been 3 years, we know how to play Push by now, people just enjoy it less than other modes. The changes to Colosseum have helped it a lot though, and I hope the upcoming ones do the same for NQS and Suravasa.
That argument would be the same as saying "people just don't really know how to play Sojourn, Queen and Kiriko yet". They've been out for the same amount of time as Push.
It's been 3 years, we know how to play Push by now,
Like, lots of people do, there are still tons of players who are just clueless though. The games been out 9 years at this point and you still have players trickle feeding, burning ults 1v5, standing way out in the open and not using cover. These are all things you would expect players to not do with such a mature game, but it happens all the time. The answer is really simple, plenty of people just play the game casually and have very little idea of strategy or even willingness to learn. Just because push has been out 3 years doesn't mean a lot of players have bothered to actually learn the strategy in how to play it.
That argument would be the same as saying "people just don't really know how to play Sojourn, Queen and Kiriko yet". They've been out for the same amount of time as Push.
Like, tons of people don't know how to play those heroes properly. Spectate a bunch of bronze/silver/gold games and you will quickly realize that. They may understand how the kit works, but tons of players just don't know how to actually play the heroes to get value out of them.
You're absolutely right, but it's the wrong echo chamber to voice opinions, apparently.
Nowhere in my comment did i say that players dont know how to play Push. What I did say is that Push is better.
Push is better than Hybrid/Escort, but players don't realize that yet.
No its not amd stop the cope about not realizing it yet, its been 2 years of push now. It just sucks dude
OK, bro. You're entitled to your opinion.
I think part of it is that people don't like the "new" thing. If Push and Flashpoint had been in overwatch since launch, you probably wouldn't get people complaining about them not liking the mode nearly as much.
I actually think Suravasa is probably one of the best maps in the game, it's really good at letting you play a lot of different things. First point is a weakness for it, sure, but first point seems to be a bit of a weakness for flashpoint maps in general, and hopefully that gets fixed on Suravasa in the midseason patch.
I'm also really, really fed up of playing hybrid/escort, even this early in the season. I had a period where in the span of about 5 or 6 matches I played KR twice (in a row), Havana twice and Eichenwalde. Sure, they're okay maps, but I don't want to be playing them *every* time which is sort of what it feels like.
I don't think newness is the reason. 2CP was in the game from early on and people hated on that mode so bad it basically got banished from the game. Personally I just despise flashpoint and Antarctica and I'm ok with the rest (I like push and think clash is ok).
I would bet that if 2CP was added to the QP map pool it would get a ton of votes. I would guess more than flashpoint/clash.
Since voting is in place they should at least try it out in QP. I would definitely vote for 2CP over flashpoint.
Push and flashpoint are two of my favorite modes so I'm really screwed. That's okay, I have other games to play if the overwatch devs really don't want me playing the game.
I think my comment here is going to be a general response to all the comments here. Isn’t that kind of the point?? You got to choose kings row every time it popped up for the first week, you got to actually avoid the maps you dislike. After some time you’re going to ACTUALLY WANT TO PLAY A PUSH MAP!? lol 😂 isn’t that kind of the beauty of it? You get to vote based on how you feel in the moment.
Holy shit a measured response. Have an upvote.
Here’s my hot take: We were fine without map voting, we’re fine with it, kudos to Blizzard for patching something new in this months episode of “What can’t our players complain about?”
For me, the glaring issue is being able to see the votes cause y’all heathens can’t resist the urge to flame the minority voters.
Member when you spawned in to Can-a-Coke-a clash every other game the first week it came out? That sucked. For some reason every time I tell myself “this is the last game”, I get Suravasa to make sure I don’t sleep that night.
These new maps and modes have gotten more than even rotation over the past year, let the community have a few extra Kings Rows/Route 66 and the votes will start swinging back in favor of the newer maps.
But please stop hating on other players for their map pick, just be good to each other for once.
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From my games it seems like people vote for push over others because they can end quickly
I dislike like 3 maps in the game (especially the artic one fuck that one) but thats all based on vibes. I further just prefer payload maps cus they feel more fun to play to me 🤷♂️
My biggest issue with map voting is they still need to be cycling the maps. They aren't. It pisses me off when I want to play a few games and get the new map every single godddamn time. I haven't played Havana since map voting started. I've played Hollywood once.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum where I never get payload. I'm grouped with all the people who dont want payload playing the same maps over and over. Out of 5 games the other day, 4 were the new map. The time before that, I played Ilios 3 times in a row. At the very least it should cycle through all of the options before showing the same ones again ffs.
The way I play this game has just radically shifted since OW2. The game really encourages self sufficiency and skirmishing, and its got me into playing all the flanker/dive characters that I never really played before. I use to play shit like zen, ashe, cass, rein, zarya in OW1, I find all these low mobility/hitscan/ground tanks boring now. Now its all about high mobility/flanker/melee/combo characters, Venture, Tracer, Genji, Doom, Winston, Lucio, shit like that.
Along with that I think payload/hybrid maps generally dont favor these other characters as much. Clash/Flashpoint/Control and to an extent even Clash all encourage you to go all over the place, take wide angles, get behind the team, they give you all these different corridors to work with and its way more entertaining. The other maps are much more oriented around chokes and corridors, and because they're attack/defense maps they're also less dynamic, I like the shifting dynamic of attack/defense on these other modes.
It definitely feels to me a player divide in just how players think the game should be and what characters you like. People who have nostalgia for the big clustered teamfights on choked corridors love Kings Row, because the entire map is literally just a corridor teamfight simulator. I think I would have liked that more in OW1 but in 2025 OW2 my playstyle and preferences have changed I think.
I also hate comp because not only do I not like the payload maps, I have to play them twice as long because they have to play the same map twice to keep it competitive, so the matches drag out so long and even worse cause I hate the maps. So I've been a QP warrior for a long time now. 1.2k hours in overwatch, like 900 of those in QP lmao and I only ever touch the mode if I have a friend who really wants to play the mode.
I look at like this, the devs hopefully get some solid feedback and learn what map types people really like and maybe make new lobby’s broken down by those types or simply make newer maps at least of the types people prefer. For the minority that like the maps most avoid I don’t know how they could fix that fully with a vote system.
I really dont mind any of the maps. Push or flashpoint ... I just dont care. HOWEVER! I can't stand Kings Row. Most people love this map. Nope. Naw. No thanks.
Im not having fun anymore with all the pre game voting. All of my hames already heavily feel so similar
In comp especially, I actually actively vote against hybrid and payload because I think going to round 4 sucks. I would prefer draws after round 2 honestly!
I don’t understand how people can stand payload maps. In Unranked they are inherently unbalanced, and in comp they take way too long to play.
Same but I think it is a highly rank dependent thing, higher the rank you the more flashpoint/push gets picked. I am SO tired of playing payload/hybrid in my high plat lobbies, same old maps/gamemode that I’ve had to play on since 2016. I legitimately dislike a handful of the payload/hybrid maps a lot so it frustrating how often I’ve had to play them, makes me not want to queue sometimes (I would play Suravasa any day over Junkertown).
I know that map voting is a good thing overall but man does it feel bad when you actually enjoy variety and aren’t one of the people who automatically hates on the newer maps/gamemodes.
Escort/hybrid maps are generally fun, but damn they’re so exhausting. If it’s an even lobby the match takes 20-30 minutes, which is fine, but not what I’m looking for 5 times in a row.
Kings Row into Kings Row into Hollywood into Numbani into Kings Row has not been my favorite gameplay loop!
Same.
Use a VPN to play in Asia. We share your taste in maps
Possible hot take. Map voting is one of the worst things to happen to this overwatch.
Love junkertown.
Tired of these posts. Okay? So like what you like. Get some friends to vote the same.
My hot take is: voting for maps shouldn't mean a different game mode.
Like you vote for which push map you get or which flash point etc.
I would really dislike that personally, frankly the only reason I like map voting is because it allows us some selection of the game mode we want to play
I wish it was like this.
It would also force the devs to diversify the number of maps on game modes so they can take a map out if it needs reworks...
I feel this!!
I just want more variety in both maps and game type. And map voting gave way less. And honestly—I don’t hate push and flashpoint the way the rest of the player base seems to. Then again, I liked 2cp. >.>
Escort/hybrid maps tend to have more verticality than push/flashpoint/control maps, which favors skill play a lot more. In maps like new queen street and colosseo if you win first fight you now have to fight an uphill battle, literally and figuratively, where the losing team gets free high ground. You should NEVER be rewarded for losing, you should have to EARN all the high ground/angles. That’s why clash was removed from the competitive playlist.
losing a fight on push doesn't give you "free" high ground, it cost you both progress and time. how is this any different than escort/hybrid where losing a fight pushes you back to the next, more easily defensible, point?
Losing any fight on any mode costs progress and time. The only push map that doesn’t give immediate high ground after a first fight loss is Esperanca. The only escort/hybrid map that consistently gives high ground with impractical flank routes to the losing team is circuit royal, and it’s widely agreed that it’s the worst map for those modes.
Everyone’s opinion here is the minority.
Ngl I leave if flashpoint gets picked. I DESPISE it. Majority of the playerbase does not know how to play this type of map. It’s a time consuming exercise in futility and frustration.
It feels like the lower the rank the more likely they vote some dogshit escort map
Can we just all accept that Colosseo is the best Overwatch map in OW2.
It fits the gameplay style of 5v5 so well. Control is also the worst game mode in OW2.
Based.
said this before but they need to make map voting to only show the maps off one game mode and everyone vote off that. This 2-3 different game modes being shown is not it, I do not want to play Kings row for the millionth time
Flashpoint/Push and then clash are what lead to me and my group of 10 daily players to uninstall. All of us found the game modes so unfun that we just dropped the game all together.
Since voting, we're all back on having more fun than ever. I think flashpoint/push enjoyers should do what they always tell the people who still enjoy 2cp: go play your unpopular game mode in arcade, the entire community has obviously spoken.
Junkertown is the easily tje worst escort map I agree, and yes I'd rather play it than push or fp cause those modes are THAT bad
I think part of it is that other modes than hybrid/escort have a potential to take longer. Esp that they are subject to things flip flopping or completely turning around. Further extending the match time. Some people don’t like that you could be winning and then fall apart and lose. Happens of Flashpoint, Clash, Control and even Push.
otoh Hybrid/Escort has the potential for ending faster. If you constantly wipe the team and either escort all the way. Or can stall the enemy team preventing them from moving the cart or capping 1st point even.
I actually don’t mind the diff modes. It does break up the monotony. Personally I just hate defending on hybrid/escort. Even if I might prefer those maps because of how straightforward they are, and as I said, they can go faster.
I actually tend to be a troll when voting lol. I often will vote for the map that has no or the least votes. 😂
lol first they take 2cp from me and now I learn nobody likes control either :( maybe it’s me
I played kings row like 5 out of ~20 games yesterday
I do enjoy the new game modes tho and most of those maps
I vote based upon map type firstly and then my personal preference if there are more than 1 of the same type. I will never vote to play a flashpoint map. I don't care if this is the third game on Numbani in a row....if I have to choose between suravasa, aatlis and Numbani.... Looks like I am playing half of my games in Numbani today.
Feels like there's a Kings Row effect to the selection preference. People would rather pick maps with safe predictable pathing and fight conditions than the more open flank oriented maps. I can't stand it because a lot of the old maps still have built-in 2CP style quagmires.
You voted for a flashpoint map?
That is trolling/gameplay sabotage.
You voted for Surav-ass-a?
Id also be pissed for that. Id happily only play Junkertown every map if it meant never touching Flashpoint again.
Suravasa is one of the best maps in the game
I'm sorry, but if I have to choose between Junkertown, Survasa, and Colosseo; I'm voting Junkertown because I prefer Escort, Hybrid and Control over Push, Clash, and Flashpoint.
Because Flashpoint sucks and we've been forced to play it while these shithead devs smile and pretend everything is fine and like we don't hate it. It's naturally going to make people overly resistant to doing the thing they hate doing.
I hate Flashpoint but I finally got one picked because of one person voting. I didn't leave the match as I had planned but played through to see if my feelings on flashpoint were the same. They were, the mode is still garbage and not fun.
I don’t care what map anyone votes for. As you mentioned, I prefer escort or hybrid more than flashpoint, control or push but to each their own.
That being said, if Kings row is an option and you vote for anything else you are wrong and I hate you.
Yeah, there definitely seems to be some majority favorites and I see some map types get at most a pity vote by the time the clock runs out
From what I see, a map having pits/environmental drops seems to scale with its “fun-ness” so even though I may vote against another control map, Ilios and Lijiang always ends up as lobby dominators