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I feel like we need a separate subreddit for "my language/framework is better than your language/framework" memes. Kinda missing the whole humor part.
No no no. You misunderstand.
It’s funny because it’s pasted over a meme template we’ve seen 5,000 times already.
Please laugh!
IM LAUGHING SO HARD!
My second favorite programmer joke is “I told my girlfriend ‘!I Love You’”
happy cake day!
It's funny to me because it's subjectively true.
This one discord I'm in has a programming channel and without fail every 6 or so months I'll check in and every conversation is just this.
🔫 jQuery
jQuery gang!
That's more like a colonial-era musket
it kills people just the same
Unless it nails the neighbor’s dog because it’s smoothbore.
I'm smooth brain so we have a lot in common.
Well it will take you an absurdly long time to load a colonial-era musket (like Angular), so you better get ‘em on the first shot
I haven’t used jquery in a long time but I think it’s one of those things where everyone hating on it either hasn’t encountered it or thought it looked too scary when they did. It was a great tool for its time and it really isn’t that much more complicated than anything else out there.
keyward was
Did someone change it?
we did years ago, membet youngling?
What are you saying
jQuery “was”, theres a reason for the was, self explanatory init?
Specifically what are you saying in the comment where I replied what are you saying. What did we change about jquery years ago and how does knowing jquery make someone a youngin
Where’s the part where angular makes you sad later that you’re using angular?
That comes in year 2 when you're debugging dependency injection for the 500th time and questioning your life choices
Yeah nightmare DI hierarchies make angular worse at scale imo. In comparison in react to where you just never have to worry about it. I get that there are a lot of nom packages but I don't really see react as being more modular as a framework to be such a bad thing
That is a wild take about angular being worse at scale. Debugging Angular is hard but there is a reason Angular is still the default enterprise choice.
For any big code base with a lot of dev Angular is infinitely easier to start with than React. As good as React is most big project for React is still the wild west for new React dev.
Any source for that „default enterprise choice“? Afaik that has been React for a while now
I'm not the parent commenter, and AFAIK react in itself is larger/more used, but if we interpret it as "in typical big enterprise websites", then my experience aligns well with the claim. Most government/bank websites, and the like are very often using angular (with some kind of java backend).
React really is just a library, not a framework, and these big corps want a framework that decides most of the stuff for them (e.g. routing, etc), so they can move devs into another team and they can be immediately productive there as well.
My experience aligns with exactly the opposite: React being used as a favorite while Angular is getting shoved out of the door all over. Any statistic I find aligns with my view.
That's why I'm asking for a source.
React in itself is larger/more used
This is what I wrote. The two sentences can be mutually true - it is more popular in banks (with potentially it being on the decline), but not in the general case.
Is it? Do you have a source for that or is that just your personal experience?
Pretty much every government site I have seen/worked on (Swiss, Hungarian, a few others), and the banks I have worked at also used it as frontend. But I don't think there is a particular metric on "Frontends used by banks and governments", so you will have to believe an internet stranger's random experience.
But I don't think it matters all that much if it's "the biggest" in this specific niche, or just big.
Ehm sources? 🤓
I prefixed with "afaik", I don't need a source for an opinion...
What he states (as a fact) and what I see differs greatly, so I'm asking for a source on it to make sure that what I'm seeing isn't wrong
or you could you know...google it...in 30 seconds
That's exactly the next problem:
Googling this clearly shows me statistics that React doesn't only lead in terms of frontend frameworks, but is used about twice as much as Angular. Every single statistic I find shows React in first place and Angular most often not even second or even third.
Now I am aware of bias in statistics, that's why I'm explicitly asking for a source.
Are you coming with a source now or can you wait until they provide one? Until that happens I'm not digging it.
why so butthurt? Chill out kiddo
I wasn't really commenting on the debugging in angular. I work at the largest company that uses angular, trying to reason about a dependency hierarchy with hundreds of transitive dependencies is a nightmare when trying to do code splitting, manage bundle size or even just decide where in the hierarchy something new should be injected. It has cost our team a lot of toil over the years
I kind of think that "at scale" all software development kind of just sucks.
I also think a lot of it comes down to the engineering, not necessarily the frameworks. Like, you can have clean React codebases with good best practices, you serve HTTP directly from a C binary (lol don't do this) and it can be fine with a good team, and you can have a scalable Angular setup. In the end, each has their own strengths and weaknesses, but those are smoothed over at scale, where the data structures take over effectively completely, IMO.
I kind of think that "at scale" all software development kind of just sucks.
Definitely not wrong lol
It does come down to engineering to a certain extent. But in this case it was specifically due to a pattern that angular requires (DI) that react and other FE frameworks don't use at all and therefore, isn't required to be engineered
i agree to a certain extent. good engineering management and architecture can mitigate the scaling problem but humans being humans—and humans sucking at complexity—means eventually any large enough project will become sucky to maintain.
plus devs always want to work on the new thing. maintaining someone else’s code is HARD. writing your own from scratch is much easier. and looks great at first because what decisions you made that were sub-optimal isn’t evident yet.
On what planet is Angular more popular or a "default choice" over react? A simple search shows how far off you really are...
Uff that is definitely one of the takes of all time
Can confirm. Still traumatized from one project 10 years ago.
I dunno, I’ve done react, vue, angular, and probably and honestly, I’ve had way better experiences in angular than anything else. It feels more complete and lightweight and as long as you’re not doing stupid shit with it and having it do what it does best it’s pretty great.
Angular is fucking awesome. Infinitely better than react. I’ve work on both professionally and I’d take Angular any day of the week.
I’ve heard really good things about Vue though. So maybe that will be used in my next side project.
Try svelte. I honestly can't go back to any other framework for my own projects after giving it a shot, but it's not very good if you want a job. (Then again if you want jobs just go for react)
FAX. Svelte is the coolest one in the block.
Would you mind elaborating what you like about it compared to React, Vue, and Angular?
As a backend dev, i am not a just guy for this. But i have worked with react and svelte. Svelte, i like svelte because it just gives everything out of the box, and i am too dumb to understand server components. In my personal opinion, i have learnt about js and browser using svelte rather than react. React seems to me just like a bad abstraction, where you learn about the library rather than the js and browser stuff. And in svelte I don't need to look for the "react version of that library". I just can use the vanilla js library instead.
I went from React to Angular and couldn't agree more. React seems to devolve into a complete fucking mess more often than not
Insane how this take is not downvoted anymore. Glad people are appreciating Angular again
Angular makes so much more sense in how it's structured if you come from any background other than pure frontend
Angular seems to get so much hate, sure its not perfect but I think its pretty decent these days
Same. Big corp job, our team wrote an entire dashboard in react, then rewrote it all in angular.
Angular is better.
As someone with only transient Angular experience, but a handful of React, could you please elaborate more on your thoughts as to why that's the case?
Every react project is subtly different that you're relearning each of their idiosyncrasies. (As an example, the current codebase I'm working with uses tailwind, but the one prior used less.)
Why React doesn't come with forms out of the box is bizarre.
I've seen React prop drilling that's just messy. Current codebase uses atoms to avoid that, and I've used RxJS, but yeah, as mentioned, every codebase is subtly different.
Angular is a bit like Java Spring. You know where everything is, it's highly opinionated so everything is exactly where you expect. When working on enterprise apps, it's just easier to maintain, and jump and and out of.
(React is great for knocking out quick prototypes, but angular is just plain more manageable after the initial set up)
I don't think anyone is even picking Vue2 anymore, but you never know: just make sure you go Vue3 if you do.
We just made the switch from Vue2 to 3 at work and it is lightyears better, none of the issues and it no longer looks 10 years dated lmao
With the new Angular signals, there is no need to use react anymore. Angular is just more clean and robust.
Hey! Very curious on this one, since I’m all in NextJS, I wonder what’s the biggest advantage of Angular compared to React?
Since you’ve used both I’d be happy you sharing an honest review. I never used Angular but it is indeed a big player in the enterprise world and maybe I’ll give it a try one day!
Clean dependency injection. CLI is fantastic. Config for different build environments is easier. You don’t have React’s dependency tracking requirement to prevent infinite re-renders. Documentation is better.
Although almost all React apps in production, at least in the places I’ve worked, are Typescript, Angular is specifically Typescript only now.
Architecture is very similar to backend architecture in terms of layers.
It’s opinionated about how things should be built. Some people think this is a bad thing. But imo, it’s a good opinion and the architecture is solid. If you try to conform to it instead of fighting it, it ends up solving just about all your needs.
OK so the fact that it seems strongly opinionated is probably the reason why it’s more used in bigger companies, it makes sense! I also chatted with ChatGPT and it honestly looks interesting. Never used decorators and it seems Angular used them (@Component / @Input). Very cool! Thanks!
@input and @output are being deprecated now we have signals! They are so good btw
OK thanks! Nice to know! (And another proof that ChatGPT should not to be blindly trusted!)
Most language models are really behind in angular knowledge, both since angular 16 the framework is a joy to work with
That explains my love for react, it has n ways to achieve the same goal. Ofcourse you stick to best practices, but you can choose to differ with a documented explaination and save a lot of weird stuff if you used the "normal way"
That same feeling you have about doing things the “normal way” in React is what is built in from the base of Angular. Especially when you use the CLI. Give it a shot!
Vercel is interested in making NextJS have every new feature possible to add to the framework. Google makes Angular to ensure the upgrade path is as smooth as possible.
Months ago, I've run a poll on the NextJS sub, the poll was: "would you like a LTS version?". Basically no one gave a fuck lol. This is my number one complaint about NextJS (and React too). They fucking change and add so fucking many things every year that you have to re-learn again, and again, and again... I like learning, but to make my job more efficient, not learn just for the sake of it, especially after almost a decade in the industry. In all honesty I'd really like to test another more stable framework, and Angular seems more and more tempting.
What features do you mean? React features? Since it should be obvious the de-facto default framework for React should support all of its features.
NextJS doesn't support a lot, it doesn't come with anything other than React and some routing features. Compared to Angular NextJS really doesn't come with anything. No state management solution, no DI, no CSS solution, nothing.
The same React component that has been written 10 years ago can be used drop-in today, without any changes, normally. If it can't, the problem lies in the implementation and the previous author is to blame, that can happen to anything.
Angular is goated on massive projects. I could not imagine doing something large scale in anything else.
Been using it since beta and still waiting for that.
The part where you have to tell people you’re a carrot farmer
You mean when you need to upgrade?
Exactly. It’s like oh this is great when setting up a project, you get a few days in and you are just like fuck this. With react yeah sure setup is a pain in the dick and stones but you can configure it how you like then you’re just good to go and it’s easy peasy plain sailing.
So true hahaha. Using angular is constant trying to convince yourself you shouldn't be using react.
when the gun blows up in your hand.
It's what's called a "batteries included" framework.
Angular? You mean plain Javascript!
Yeah I use Angular at work and it’s way more the first picture than the second. The meme doesn’t make sense.
I'm not familiar with Angular at all, as I've never used it at work (and why would I do that to myself outside of work?), but can you not use typescript or tailwind? That would really suck if true.
You can use it, this meme makes no sense
Every frontend is like the first picture, OP probably tried Angular first time and found it so refreshing before it also inevitably devolves into another JavaScript ecosystem hellhole.
That would make more sense. Angular isn't simpler, it's just a monolith instead of modular.
Vanilla JS
Idk how this isn’t vanilla JS/CSS/HTML lol
The angular guy should be pointing the gun at his foot
Or his head
A lot of those a junk, don’t use them if you don’t want them
Replace that with ASP.NET.
Or the og Active Server Pages.
I use react in production and don’t use like 80% of this stuff. Stupid meme is stupid.
Same.. I'd say probably 95% ..
i think 99.99% is a more fair average
obligatory 🔫 htmx
Htmx my lightweight beloved... So clean so wonderful
The Angular gang strikes again!
How to piss off react people
Did Angular devs finally drop NgRx and RxJs? I didn't enjoy working in that framework in the past.
NgRx is not a standard Angular dependency. RxJS is still there, but Angular is evolving more and more towards a declarative signals based approach, relying less and less on the pub/sub pattern
*Vanilla JS
lol ok have fun.
what? anyone who actually uses angular (i.e. me) knows this ain't accurate.
The amount of people here who think Angular is "simple" or small footprint... I mean, absolutely wild.
Angular belongs on the left, too. With love from the Server-Side Master Race.
JQuery for old times' sake.
Was life saver
Service module dependency injection hell noises intensify
Don't forget angular ssr and other bloat
Angular absolutely is the worst
And didn't get me started on angular.js
But it pays the bills
Istg each time we transfer projects between servers I have to install almost 100 NPM packages...
Pffff. Frameworks are just big government telling me how to code. Real devs stick to vanilla JavaScript.
Angular also uses TypeScript.
I wish I still worked in Angular, my company uses Meteor.js and theres nothing stating we're going to switch anytime soon.
vanilla js is the best
Redux toolkit, tanstack query and axios? Which junior built this repo!
guy on the right should be html + CSS + js
When you thought you were sneaking into the React party unnoticed, but Angular is the bouncer.
You might as well use that bell curve meme ;)
Do you use Angular without typescript or why is it not listed on the right?
What do you people not understand that React is not a framework like Angular?
Just tell the users to use the API they don't need a front end
Is it me or this image is simply not true?
Like I don't remember angular material being built in, or Jest. Some items on the left are optional to begin with. And all of this is even beyond the point. Including more things in the main package, things you might not even use just for the sake of "buht ma package.json looks smaller now" is an interesting choice
where is vue in this image?
Isn't Vue, today, just "Svelte, but with React-style Hooks"? What arguments are there to use Vue over anything else?
dont know enough to answer that with confidence haha
as a backend dev, it just seams a lot less convoluted and over engineered
but then again, this is far from my wheelhouse
This sums up exactly the difference of rendering lib vs an actual framework.
I need to revisit Angular. When I last checked it (v3/4), I hated its reactivity model.
Svelte
yeah but you get jsx
Ya? No.
angular is not a simple pistol… it’s a complex weapon system that works on dependency injection
Can't wait to see copies of this with a different framework on the right
Jest comes with Angular?
Wdym, the fun part is installing packages like legos
what... nobody uses Struts?
Yeah but the left one looks cooler
Maybe I’m out of date since I left angular right after angular is ended… but I remember angular being just as bad.
I don’t like that this chick always gets the butt end of this meme cuz she’s still a badass
Tailwind & styled components?
I mean why not jest and sinon?!
You mean HTMX?
big junior energy post of the day
Does angular have any tools and second grade packages? Let's throw them in there to create the same wall of text from random bits and pieces. All I did was install vite and the build a react starting point with it in one command, that's it - you can start reacting.
I'm not even for one or other framework, I do things on a smaller more specialist sclae where not using frameworks is a huge performance gain. However I do think React is great for not reinventing the wheel, unlike some frameworks which replaced normal JS ternaries with some made up bullshit.
Comparing a library (React) with a Framework (Angular) is pretty special…
OP is in their first year and it shows. Shit meme.
Angular is garbage
This is retarded. I am sorry but it is. As someone in FE for almost 8 years, I can tell you this is some junior level shit. Both framework have different approach and different philosophies. 1 let's you do whatever you want to, create your own way to do things and if you are so hellbent on having structure, try NextJS then. While Angular is incredibly monolithic and opinionated language. Both have downsides and upsides but there is a reason why react comes on top. Angular does something it's way and ITS ONLY GOING TO BE ITS WAY. Which is much better for new Devs yes but React is completely modular. You can do whatever you want. Use RRD + Vite and that's it. You can even install Vite with typescript but that's the thing you have a choice! Oh and have you ever bothered to open package.json of Angular? Lol. Behind the hood it downloads just as many dependencies to function. So in the end it's your choice. As someone learning Go, I really like React. I can use it the way I want to and if I want more structure use NextJS.
Guys can we at least TRY to make good memes and not some undergrade BS MEME
reacts is good for juniors i agree
..... That's the opposite of what I said...
Oh i never heard it the other way around. Most people say angular is for more advanced developers
I don't see it that way especially since I first used Angular and then used React. In React, it's very modular yes but if you are not accustomed to better coding practices, you will make mistakes and end up having spaghetti code. Unlike Angular where everything is extremely organised and you are less likely to make mistakes but then it also means that you are bound to that system and cannot do things your way (if you for whatever reason disagree with the approach)
First time im hearing it...usually its react for begginers because you are allowed to mess around and don't have to know any advanced coding concepts (or even typescript really)
....... No. Not in enterprise projects or basically anything that goes to production. Or else you will be in a world of pain because you can EASILY develop bad habits with React if not careful. Angular promotes better practices for sure but at some point it starts hitting it's limit in my opinion.
But that opinion comes from three years ago. I haven't used Angular for a while now. So maybe new developments have made it streamlined. I heard you don't need modules anymore unless using third party services so that's great I guess.
Idk man but you sound like a junior or at least the problems you describe are...argue with the wast majority of articles written on this topic 🤷♂️
..... Sure why not. You can have your opinion and I'll have mine. Let's leave it at that.
With Angular you still have the same complexity (and I'd argue even more than with React's stack), it's just under one name.
Some still use jquery now. wkwkwk
That’s me and my team. We are not alone according to the stack overflow developer survey results
What can jquery do that vanilla js can’t?
Good question. I read about it and modern JS can do everything JQuery can basically. Interesting. Well that’s the webstack I inherited. Maybe we will refactor a lot of it later but that’s been slow in the past
You can just stop using it, and use regular js
https://youmightnotneedjquery.com/
Keep seeing that question which really isn’t the point. jQuery syntax is easier than vanilla. jQuery also lets you chain calls together. I find it easier to read and use than vanilla. though in some cases like fetch vs .ajax, vanilla is better.
This is exactly it. It can reduce your codebase. Commands are shorter and I can do a lot in one line where vanilla js requires many. It's useful, especially if you're not frontend-heavy.
jQuery has some nice short hands that take a lot more code in vanilla JS. It's not a "can't", it's a convenience thing.
it's easier to read, faster to bring newcomers.
DataTables is a godsend. Easily worth the extra jQuery bloat.
Handle people that still live like it's 20025
i am a backend engineer, but i can do some really good looking pages with jquery.
everything else seems overly complicated for me.
you can do good looking pages with vanilla HTML and CSS.
... but 'good looking' is not the criteria to judge frameworks by. I prefer to look at maintainability, speed of implementation, performance, robustness...
Doesn’t every framework reduce performance compared to vanilla js? It’s an abstraction after all, they all introduce a performance hit… it’s the logical consequence of introducing an abstraction layer.
yeah but after you get a significant app going your own abstractions are likely to be slower than battle tested frameworks.
exactly this.
I could roll my own binary tree data structure in Javascript, because any library that provides that is just fat bloat compared to lean vanilla JS
or....
Yes and no. Every framework will add some overhead, but more complicated features are much easier to implement efficiently with frameworks, so it depends on your application.
So in other words the classic tradeoff between development speed, ease of maintenance vs effort etc
yup.
frameworks are faster to develop in, for most devs, for no -trivial project. for a small simple page, vanilla will be easier to maintain; as complexity grows this is rapidly exceeded by the framework. i’d say a framework is probably easier to onboard someone to unless it’s an extremely well designed vanilla app. spaghetti tends to emerge quickly though, so bringing people in to it is harder.
i’ve tried managing a complex app in vanilla—keeping state and DOM in sync grew to be a nightmare. React took much of that away. and of course introduced its own complexity and issues.
jQuery was great in its day, and the folks here praising its syntax aren’t wrong. personally though i will always prefer native language features to a library. and JS can now do almost everything you used to need jQuery for.
my response to devs who want to use it for syntax reasons would be if syntax is that important then just write your own wrapper around the native functions to give you, e.g., the chaining you get from jQuery.
React Vue and Angular all use some pretty sophisticated algorithms to render content. The fact that they're using those crazy algos often makes the total performance better than just doing a large quantity of basic js.
Theoretically you could do all those fancy algorithm acrobatics but then you'd just have recreated react again.
More complicated then vanilla js?
Frameworks aren't there for sites with a few pages, they're there to handle the complexity of bigger apps.
like i said, i am a backend engineer
you can pretty much assume that any company that requires a dedicated backend engineer (or teams of them) will not be serving "a few pages"
I was a fan of Vue for a while. Like a lot of less experienced devs I was sure that it was the solution that would finally let me create "clean code." I was comforted by the structure of nested components, passing down data to child components through props and bubbling up info to parent components through events, the automatic reactivity of elements bound to props/data, etc.
But actually working at a place for a few years now that uses Vue...I'm beginning to dread every time I have to deal with it. If I wanna just bang some shit out and make it work, these days I'll take jQuery or vanilla JS. Vue is just so damn particular. Seems like if you don't do everything almost 100% correctly then you run into little problems. And of course in 99% of large production codebases shit is rarely going to be done "correctly." If I have to chase down one more obscure reactivity issue in a Vue component I'm going to lose it. I can only assume React and Angular and other similar tools have similar problems. Things are a little better with Vue 3 now, what with things like not having to use Vue.$set when modifying object properties to ensure reactivity. But it still remains a headache now we've upgraded.
"Sounds like a skill issue," "git gud," "you're just not using it right!" yeah yeah, save your breath. They all probably suck outside of pretty niche situations, that's my belief. I don't need my mind changed. I'm on the right side of the bell curve meme, damn it!
Now the time I bridged our newer Vue stuff with the older jQuery stuff, that was interesting.
i dipped my toes in VueJS for a few years,
we completely regret it, and replaced it with static pages + jQuery
We hired a temp to do a install wizard for one of our tools, and he used VueJS for it.
It really looked nice, and the code looked "modern". Once his contract run out, we had to manage the code by ourselves... and everyone dreaded having to work with it, from junior to senior staff.
eventually we ripped the system out, and replaced it with static pages using Symfony's Twig templates (PHP) + jQuery. It became a lot easier to maintain it, and there was no loss of functionality.
Living free baby
i see wkwkwkk
I use vanilla