ProgrammerHumor
myFeelingFirstTimeWorkingInMNC
Discussion
cornmonger_
:rust:
don't they know that globals are an anti-pattern
17 hours ago
rover_G
:c::rust::ts::py::r::spring:
They should just make the type implement a trait with a function that always returns the same value instead.
16 hours ago
flerchin
Ive never had an after hours scheduled call that was meaningful. Yall have email. Use it.
17 hours ago
TheMaleGazer
This is unavoidable. Every company I've worked for that has had an offshore, global support team has hired the most clueless imbeciles they could get for the lowest price, and they always do one of two things:
- Dither for 8 hours accomplishing nothing, then deciding that my workday probably starts at 5:00 AM, which is when they fail to even articulate what the problem is.
- Dither for 5 minutes and then decide to wake me up at midnight.
16 hours ago
Jmc_da_boss
I just don't do late night call, fuck if i care what the India teams do. They want to cheap out. Shit slows to a halt
16 hours ago
nwbrown
:clj:
Would you prefer 3 am calls?
18 hours ago
setibeings
:rust::cp::js::ru::ts::j:
Do you eat your midnight snacks at exactly 12 AM?
18 hours ago
PillowTon
I think the solution is NO calls after office hours, not 'choose between 12 am or 3 am'.
1 hour ago
Ive seen this in practice. Its fun in the meme but not irl
This is straight-up illegal here in Denmark. Which means the off-hour calls always are within Danish work time and US/India have to accommodate us. Also every single instance of these meetings were the product of micromanagement.
imagine living in a country that protect its citizens instead of treating its citizens as enemies
Horrible thought. How else can bad managers screw over their employees?
Not choice for many country. Because company can simply move to other country. wkwkwk
often, it's not the company, but managers (I feel?)
but I can't say for sure because I don't have a corporate job
99% of required meetings are because of some cunt manager who can’t do their job effectively
Denmark is truly the pinnacle of employee health and rights. I know Americans (and other nations too) love to come with the "but they pay so much tax, and I have a better car and bigger house than them" but then the day to day lives are just so much higher quality due to these labor laws. I really don't get why more countries aren't enforcing similar policies to protect their citizens. I know why companies don't, but the government has an actual interest in this.
I moved to the Netherlands from the UK, and holy shit is employment better here. My boss' out of office currently reads "See you in three weeks", and I know I would not get a response if I messaged it. And he'd not get a response from me when I take my holiday.
And because of this, we spent the past month doing stress tests on our systems to make sure that we all knew how to bring bits back up, and that documentation is up to date.
Better rights make for better code.
I actually don't mind the early calls with Europe. The late night calls with Asia are brutal.
So it depends on fucking over the other country's workers... What happens if the other country also has similar rules?
Then the manager has to do his job
I used to work in a global team consisting of 3 shifts with overlapping of 1 hour between them, like:
Team 1 works from 0 to 9 UTC
Team 2 from 8 to 17
Team 3 from 16 to 1.
If we needed to talk to the other shifts we just scheduled a meeting in that 1 hour at the start/end of shifts and it was within working hours of both sides.
like, distribute to other available timezones or something, I'm happy to help for a consultant fee of 3 gazillion dollars since managers can't figure this shit out
this. why do I have to do something at midnight when there are regions who are in office hour? what if we distribute work around just enough so that we have roughly enough 24/7 office hour support instead of holding a part of work and held all other people across the world at gunpoint when something happen
Not illegal in Germany apparently
The "right to disconnect" applies, so they can't force you to join
Can't speak for Germany but in Austria they can order OT and/or working at night, however this needs to be done in advance, paid extra (and not by an all too small amount) and then comes with an extended rest period since the "right to disconnect" doesn't state WHEN that has to happen, only that it does and how long it needs to be uninterrupted. If it also happens regularly for no apparent reason you could go the union route in which they gotta prove that it's actually necessary. Friend of mine sometimes has meetings at unholy hours due to international cooperation but he gets that shit paid double and gets extra rest time
Here in Hungary too. Sure, I can join the 10pm call, but don’t expect to see me until noon next day. Labor Code states I have to get my beauty sleep!
Im pretty sure it's not illegal in
dearlyDenmark. Might be against your union agreement though. I'd love to hear more if you know otherwise.Not sure what "dearly" is, but the EU law called "right to disconnect" means your employer can only expect you to work outside normal hours if there is an unexpected and exceptional need. A recurring global dev meeting is neither.
Autocorrect must have spotted a typo when I tried to write
Denmarkand decided I meantdearly.As far as I know,
Right to Disconnecthasn't been implemented in Denmark, and as of this article (from 2023 though), it is not implemented.According to this article,
That's about the extent of it.
As it says in your quote, there's nothing to implement because we already have these rights. Note that checking emails and off-work meetings count as actual work, and therefor relates to your rest period.
These rights existed even back when I was a union rep 13 years ago.
Jeg skifter lige sprog for jeg t'nker ikke der er nogen andre end os to der læser herneditl.
Vi har 11-timers-reglen, men den er lidt en gummicheck (hvad er det, 10 undtagelser om året?), men uden overenskomst er der ikke så meget mere end dét af hvad jeg kender til.
11 timers reglen betyder, at hvis du er til møde kl 10 om aftenen må du først møde igen næste dag kl 9. Kan kun fraviges ved særlige, uplanlagte omstændigheder. Derudover har man fastsat arbejdstid som arbejdsgiver ikke kan kræve man ser bort fra - medmindre der er særlige omstændigheder. Fx kan det forventes at man nogle gange arbejder over hvis der er særlig travlt, men ikke hvis det var forventet eller sker regelmæssigt.
Dette er i arbejdsmiljøloven. Ofte vil en overenskomst sætte en ramme for hvad der er ekstraordinært og hvordan man kompenseres. Uden rammen er det faktisk sværere for arbejdsgiver at kræve overarbejde, da det betyder man ikke har en aftale om at det kan ske.
Det er, desværre, almindeligt at arbejdsgivere ignorerer arbejdsmiljøloven for de lavt-lønnede job. Men det betyder ikke at rettighederne ikke findes.
Det er sgu' også almindeligt i de højt betalte IT-jobs da langt de fleste arbejdspladser er for små til at have overenskomster, og derfor en meget ringe fagforeningstilstedeværelse.
What happens when another country implement a similar law, and there is no overlap in hours? Would you just never cal that country?
Yep. Or you get special compensation and work agreement for working late. Generally speaking, in EU there needs to be a clear compensation, either monetary or you get reduced hours later.
I'm fairly sure that some big tech companies do this on purpose to get devs to work more hours. When you live on the US west coast and your sister team lives in China, the 8 hour time difference means that someone always has to meet outside of their normal work day. I had meetings at like 7pm sometimes, and many devs figure they may as well keep working until that meeting starts anyway.
One of the more egregious cases is TikTok with their Singapore team. Meetings wouldn’t be that bad - Expedia did the same with Gurgaon for standups and I didn’t mind - but in practice I had to also get quite a bit of serious work done during Singapore time. Combine that with a full plate during US business hours and 60+ hour work weeks were very common.
I live in England. If we do calls with the US it's near the end of our day (morning for the us) and if we do calls with china it's near the start of our day (late afternoon in china). Sometimes upper management do calls at other times, but that's not a problem for the rest of us tbh and they usually get the next day off extra if they do it so they don't mind anyway. Feels about as fair as we can get.