It seems like the lobbys for every bracket are very thin even at 60. Do people just not like BG's in vanilla era or is this a sign for the 20th anniversary servers that PVP is dead.
I don't consider AV PVP anymore either.
WSG is just not fun anymore compared to 20 years ago. Hunter traps and druid pixel jumping makes it "catch the druid" instead of fighting for flag
This was it for me. Used to love WSG but blizzard refuses to fix the broken jump mechanics so it’s either you learn it or lose every game to it. Shouldn’t even be that difficult to fix, the laziness and incompetence is insane
It depends who you ask. People in 2019 release just accepted that it was how the game went, and if you didn't want to WSG you ranked in AB instead
At the end of the day if they change flag carrying mechanics you're still gonna get destroyed by the gold buyers popping 100g in OP consumables that completely break standard pvp matchups, as the other commenters pointed out in why they dislike AB
Then if you change consumables people are going to be complaining it isn't classic anymore yadda yadda. No winning scenario
Nah, that's not the worst part at all. The worst part is definitely that it is an arms race of who pops the most expensive consumables.
That aswell y
Catch the druid was hella fun as warlock in classic. I regulary got qued up with stormx and keeping efc at bay while he got us the win was one of the mosz fun times i had in vanilla.
Warlock is just one of those classes that is insanely fun to play in organized WSG games. A crucial part of the team controlling enemy healers, controlling FC, clutch felhunter dispels, and throwing shadowbolt nukes on called targets. Also played lock in classic did tons of this and had loads of fun :)
Well ofc, warlock always has been the best class in WoW
Love to see locks (especially Alliance) playing their role properly in WSG/AB and not just being CC breaking SL bots looking for 1v1s in mid/roads.
I appreciate you, amigo.
It's because Horde were forced into AB and WSG back then so you had a mix of players in there. Now people who rank don't set foot in any bg other than AV so you are left with sweats. I love WSG, I can do all the jumps, I've played in organized wargame tournies etc. But I don't want to have to come to every single WSG spending 100+ gold on boots, faps, sappers and a whole other mess of consumes. Sometimes I just wanna chill and play some relaxed fun pvp.
WSG is the worst BG for casual games.
Why don't people play AB? That I don't really understand.
WSG could get fixed with anti-turtle-flag setting
What would that be exactly
Introduction of a mechanic where holding the enemy flag isn't possible or easy for a long period of time or at all.
It probably still wouldn't spike classic PvP popularity
Both of them have issues for casuals. AB is considerably more gear dependant because you actually have to win fights to complete objectives. You can get away with having less gear in WSG with prope4 CC and consume use, you can't get away from ele shamans or alli warlocks nuking you in the BS clash.
What I mean by "casual friendly" is more about "are random skirmishes like in AV likely to happen or you going to be camped at gy like in WG".
It's less about win/lose in my opinion for casual pvp enjoyers, like me myself.
GY camping is not a regular occurance in WSG. Its my main part of the game, both pugs and premades, and I rarely ever see it. If you mean useless pugs who jump out of the GY and instant dismount for the first red name against a enemy team that's controlling mid is GY camping, sure.
Classic AB is fine.
Classic AV is broken but effective for honor farming.
Classic WSG is broken and utterly crap.
I’d argue changing the AB resource amount from 2000 to 1600 was a good change. 2000 takes just a little too long to get to if it’s a solid back and forth match.
People don’t like PvP, they like epic rewards.
Tbh vanilla PvP isn't great
Depends what class you're playing, if you're playing a ret pala of feral druid you're gonna have a bad time, but if you're warrior, rogue, shadow priest or frost mage you're gonna do OK, shadow priest with goblin engineering is gonna be unstoppable
Ironic you mention ret pals and feral druids here because they are both pretty great in pvp in vanilla but they're absolute garbage in pve lol
I get what you were trying to say though
That's entire the point why it sucks 😂
a hybrid ret spec with reckoning is literally one of the most broken things in the game.
PvP is the most fun when you have the epic rewards, and the least fun when you don't have them and others do. You're not gonna outskill getting 2 shot from geared burst classed unless you play a hard counter.
I did WSG as a full nax geared hunters and won a 1v4 when I got them in a frost trap at a choke point. I had tons of fun. Them on the other hand...
Cowards
I’m still queuing for WSG and AB. Had a few good WSG games, majority alliance winning, queues were 5-10 minutes. AB I can only seem to get into on AB weekends and it’s majority horde winning, 40min-1.5hour queues if it’s not AB weekend. Kinda blows, but what can ya do. I tend to find fun places to world pvp and farm, that’s the best you can do these days.
Because the modern gamer removes fun if it's inefficient.
Get R14 after mindless AV zerg + acquire epic pvp gear = never queue for pvp and quit game.
It genuinely feels this way. I don't even know why some people play the game, they talk and play like they hate it.
"people like the idea of playing the game more than they actually like playing it"
you can apply this to a lot of things. people think because they've played WoW before that they have an obligation to always play it no matter if they even want to or not.
you find these people boosting their character, swiping endlessly, and mental gymnastics-ing their way into justifying all of it with "I'm old and don't have time for it"
they'll never be fulfilled by doing it. it's become a nasty cycle for them.
Lmao you have described me to a T with this fresh. I really just need to quit, I barely even enjoy classic now
I just described the majority of players. There's a reason retail ended up the way it did - it was always the natural direction of where the playerbase throughout the years wanted Blizzard to go combined with Blizzard getting too arrogant and corrupted by Activision monetization.
Classic WoW is definitely an all time great game. One of the greatest RPG experiences you'll ever have is Vanilla through Wrath, but how many times can you realistically replay it without realizing the sheer amount of time sink and toll it takes on you to play efficiently (which is the only way veteran WoW players want to play, because there's no point of playing inefficiently when you know how much time you say being efficient)
The "magic" is gone for the playerbase and now it's all about rushing to the end to "compete" on an arbitrary leaderboard (warcraft logs) even though literally nobody cares about anyone else's parse besides their own
It happens in all games. Like some people enjoy playing Path of Building (gear/tree planner) more than Path of Exile (the game itself). When I could not play, I used to love planning my routes in runescape with all the little goals and milestones.
Addiction is a hell of a drug
Oh shut up lmao. Go try to get rank 14 without AV. It’s just blizzard who has made it so you either do PvP for little to no gain (AB/WSG), or you PvE in AV and get good gear reward.
Or just dont get rank 14 and PvP cuz its fun? You dont HAVE to min max everything. Your numbers will still be high without it.
Ok, so you go into AB/WSG and end up fighting people with R14 gear after a bit. That is, if the queue pops at all.
Blaming the playerbase for every shitty design from blizzard is such a boomer mentality.
People will do things if it feels somewhat worth their time. I could also just run in circles in Stormwind. PvPing is fun, but if you do it for no reward at all, or any benefit, it gets old really quick.
Quite unfun to PvP when the PvE'ers are getting BiS PvP gear by queuing up into the shitty PvE BG, but whatever. Impossible to convince people who want people to just roleplay away the shitty designs in the game that could easily be fixed with minor tweaks.
what if their fun is minmaxing? why are you unable to comprehend that?
Obviously they aren’t having fun if they don’t accept how the system works.
what makes you think they don't accept it?
R14 through WSG/AB would probably take until TBC to achieve.
back in 2005, we attacked enemy capitals almost dailys. Sometimes as raid, but mostly as small band of players, sometimes as rogues and druids, sometimes mixed.
In todays game, I have spammed LFG and Trade chats for couple of weeks before I stopped because I never found more than like 3 people to do it, despite server being like 10.000 people.
Doing things "for fun" is acceptable to modern audience.
More honor in av just afking and facing mostly tryhard premades in wsg/ab that already are r14. I'd like to AB but facing premades that will spend 20g+ on consumes on a 7 minute stomp is awful.
i dont like warsong gulch because it turns into a camp fest. nobody actually wants to fight each other and you can observe this in the first 30 seconds of the game. both teams just let the other team get their flag for free. and then they both bring it back to their base but neither team can capture it because they already gave their own flag away for free. so from there you can either "defend" your own flag carrier which is just alot of standing around. or you can try to "attack" the other teams flag carrier and get yours back. but its futile because you cant win a 1v10 situation. you will die the instant you engage them. the whole gameplay is stupid. i wish people would actually try to defend the flag before its taken. and actually fight people instead of just letting them walk into your base for free
arathi basin has very similar problems just at a larger scale. it usually ends up with alliance controlling 2 bases and horde controls 3. so you can either stand around and "defend" or you can try to "attack" but then you end up losing in 1v5 situations where you die the instant you engage. arathi basin would be much better if it was like a real army. if you had a commander who could issue orders and keep people coordinated. like imagine if instead of trying to attack a base alone, you had a commander assign 5 people to a squadron and then you could go in there and have a 5v5 battle. that would be way cooler. and the commander could try and do a bunch of tricky things sending small squadrons around the map to attack and defend
Wsg without a timer takes a day for me
AB is the most fun and no idea
AV idea is interesting but I wasn’t there 20 years ago so AV is just a lazy grind
No one plays this game purely for fun anymore.
Because people don't play the game for fun. They play it for the next "X per Hour."
WSG sucks so much ass because of the stupid wall climbing
As an avid pvper, most BG and Arenas (tbc) reason is very easy, with deep and complicated underlying reasons:
Main reason is that modern playerbase do not actually like doing PvP in WoW classic.
Underlying reasons are:
* Significant amount of people plays classic because it is a "failure free" game. Due to minmaxing that is outright crazy, from choosing race to class combos to worldbuffs and gearfarming, the "failure" is practically impossible, you always kill the boss and complete the raid and "win". Only thing changes is how fast you win. This created increadible arrogance and bubble of "I am pro" feeling which people do believe. PVP however, does not work like that. You can minmax to sky but without very good understanding and awareness, you will still fail, a lot. Most people can not handle with such failure and quit PvP right away. They get reminded that they are not really actually good at the game, and they hate it. We saw it increadibly clearly at TBC launch, where everyone was saying how they will destroy arenas, just to turn to "I dont care about arenas anyways" after 2 weeks in arenas, then they faced the reality they arent really good at it.
* WoW pvp is mix of strategy and anticipation with small amount of reflex needed. What most people understand from pvp in games nowadays is just reflex game, way more 1 dimensional. WoW classic is not like that, it has way more variable and surprises. You may think as warlock you will toy with a paladin, but pally may have a shadow resist set and actually toy with you. This makes the game way more complicated, which people do not like.
WSG and AB do not have the rep / hph rewards for the amount of time commitment required that’s why nobody queue’s for them.
WSG in classic is poorly designed - no time limits - honor for kills quickly diminishes to 0 - the wall hacks - very little rep rewards
AB is the best for pvp imo, but has some draw backs - too long (15-20mins for a normal game with long stretches of inactivity) - too big of a map
The weirdest thing about each bg is the rewards that seem to be designed for leveling but are near impossible to get with the amount of rep required.
Outside of the ridiculous gear some classes get for the honor grind, the reality is there would be very few battlegrounds open. PVP is not balanced or particularly fun in classic -- it feels like (and was) more of an afterthought. So, absent that grind for gear, you 'd see more of what you see for WG for AV -- a few instances now and then, but often none going on.
But, since the rewards are so good, people grind honor and 6-8 minute AV games give much more honor per hour than either of the other BG
Obviously b/c ppl do not like getting steamrolled and roflstomped by premades.
I haven't played WSG or AB since 2010 if memory serves and never played those BGs either when I played at Private Servers.
After changing the honor system so much, not sure why they dont just buff WSG and AB honor, or nerf AV if R14 is too easy right now. (I do feel like I see too many R14s is my 2 cents)
Large changes already made, getting AB and WSG ques rolling would be great with just small adjustment to honor rewards
Rank 14 isn't about skill, it's about time invested.
Always been
No, back in the day you needed skill and a good group. AV was too slow, so you had to run WSG/AB premades.
As far as I know back in 2005 you needed a teamspeak server and talked to your enemy fraction and had a waiting list who will be the next r14 and sometimes didn't even fight back in AB/WSG so that one team could grind "effectively"
...Which takes...time!
correct, when i said easy i guess i could have said too accessible to be more clear.
For example I dont know what % of players blizzard wants to be R14. Maybe it used to be 5% of all players with old system. Maybe now it is 25%. It seems too high too me is all, but who knows maybe it is still too restrictive and blizzard would prefer 75% of players to be R14, so in that case they can buff up AB and WSG rather than tone down AV is all im saying
Because they made rank gear easier to obtain so Alliance actually queue for AV this time.
I don’t care about rank or honor. I like playing battlegrounds for the thrill of (hopefully) being able to heal people as they are fighting in battle.
I have also noticed that the queues didn’t often pop. I have sometimes queued, on my journey to 60 on anniversary. My highest is 59 now!
I’m with you in the opinion that AV just doesn’t feel like PvP anymore. I like AB and WSG more. I don’t like the super fast AV games; I wish there was more time to turn in armor and flesh.
Very few people nowadays "play" BGs
They farm honor the optimal way (AV spam) until they get their rewards then fuck off to other content or games
I wanted to PvP in sod but was quite put off from WSG as I wasn't super geared and fully flasked on every spawn. I just wanted some nostalgia but that sure didn't fit with the community.
Just a side note.
Because the game has been gutted for optimization. They don’t care about honor kills they care about honor per hour. I wish blizzard would buff the honor output of WSG and AB so we could get some genuine pvp going outside of turtles in AV while neck beards are screaming throwing a tantrum because you’re ruining their efficiency.
Had a dude complaining for 25 minutes in a turtle AV the other day. Tried telling him to just leave but he wouldn’t. Didn’t want to take the 15 minutes lockout. He could’ve easily taken it and gotten back into a game before we were done. He sat there complaining threatening to report for griefing lol
Honestly the only time I’ve had fun in AB was with a coordinated group, which almost never happens with a pug. AV is just a grind fest but win or lose you still gain a lot of honor from there.
People play to min/max and be efficient now adays, not for fun.
As much as I loved PvP in vanilla, it's probably the worst iteration of pvp for wsg and an as compared to cata(soon to be mop). With rank 14 basically becoming a mandatory grind thanks to it being so easily attainable gamers are stuffing themselves into the afk style farming like rats in a maze finding the quickest route to the cheese.
At least in the prepatch right now there is some stat squishing and incentive to run random bgs and whatever the bg of the week is.
Metagaming at its finest.
Cause AV is the way to go for rank 14 and classic WSG / AB just isn't fun. It's always one team getting slaughtered and everyone just afk's.
No time limits.
Because people minmax the fun out of everything and cant just play for fun.
i’ve had 75% of my AB games be a neck and neck tight race to 2000. I’m a new player and enjoy AB more than anything else wow has to offer, including raids, but the attitude of min/maxing and telling people that they ‘need’ to get R14 ruins the queue times.
Nobody PVPs for PVP anymore. You sit afk in AV to max honor, collect your welfare gear and then log off until the next fresh.
On top of that, WSG can be stalled forever and thats absolutely miserable. Ive never played WSG in Anniversary but in Vanilla good luck stopping the druids that know how to flag run, especially by the time wall jumping and getting out of the map became a thing. Youd get stuck in WSG for an hour and get 0 honor because you didnt cap a flag, nobody wants to deal with that shit.
AB is just as bad but atleast it is forced to eventually end.... eventually.
AB becomes a 2-3 base cap where everyone just keeps running to BS or LM to die repeatedly for 20 minutes until the team thats had 3 bases this whole time is at 1200 of the 2000 score they need to win and all of a sudden they lose the Mines and its now 3-2 for the other team and another 20 minutes goes by and the score is now 1700-1700 and theres still atleast another 15 minutes to go if you dont continue to trade bases, all for shit honor.
So unless you actually LOVE PVP for PVP and nothing else, theres no reason to ever go into AB or WSG.
In 2019 classic horde queues were long so you would queue all bgs and take any that popped. It looks like the population shifted to alliance and now that queues are equitable there's no reason to do WSG/AB.
I dont think a lot of people actually like BGs
They might like world pvp where they can create situations where they have a massive edge, which is a lot harder in BGs where players are prepared
Add/increase rewards in them would just be bribing players into doing stuff they otherwise wouldn't do
I don’t want to PvP, I just want PvP rewards. AV satisfies both fronts, it’s not really PvP, and it gives the most honor, therefor I get my rewards faster.
PvP is a secondary goal for players who participate in battlegrounds (at best). The primary goal is to farm their gear as fast as possible. AV is the most efficient route to achieve this. A lot of them are just PvE players farming their BiS.
People holding WSG hostage instead of winning (depending on what iteration of WoW you're playing)
WSG biggest problem always was the fact, that it could become real slog, and super long for a very limited content\format it has.
"Jump around rooftops and obstacles, to catch flag carrier who is stalling the game" was ok first 100 times, but next 10000 is too much.
Also, on lower lvls many ppl just avoid BGs because of twinks, and there is not enough twinks to make it active, so, it is what it is.
No idea, i absolutely love WSG and that's all i ever want to play
It’s because it’s all gear motivated a large amount the players who run av don’t even like pvp. There are no rewards for Bg’s other than go or. And what do era players do when there is no reward and just fun? Nothing since they don’t play for fun. I would have had multiple chars rank 14 if people actually played pvp in era. Now I’m just waiting for tbc.
People don’t play BGs for fun - they basically only play the BGs where they can rack up honor and PvP rewards as quickly as possible.
because AV is far more efficient honor farm.
I am not happy about that myself as I like WSG and AB, but .. can't make people go/do things that are not as effective as others
Did they ever remove premades from solo queue?
Cuz WSG is fuckin shit
its because those are PvP battlegrounds, and AV is a PvE battleground.
I could go into detail but most of it stems from the fact that PVP in a 20+ year old super unbalanced game isnt fun, without any sort of matchmaking or rating, and people only do it as a means to an end. And you're right, AV is just an 80 man raid to farm honor the most efficiently.
hell, people don't even pvp in the modern version of wow either...and they have balancing and matchmaking, maybe pvp is MMO's is just shitty
No one wants to pvp expect people who are already super try-hard and sweaty at it. Most people willing to learn and try to join the pvp scene will likely just give up because no one is excited to try to learn a real time player vs player video game when the only people they que up against are people with hundreds of hours of practice ahead of them from a time when way more casuals were playing. No one is going to que into WSG or AB as a solo and do anything other than get steamrolled unless they are already a pvp veteran. There are too many video games nowadays for people to just stick with one player vs player game and keep a vibrant community of people playing where anyone of any skill level AT ANYTIME can join and find fun engaging opponents.
this basically, and still a problem with retail pvp lol
honestly this take is so braindead is blowing me away “no one is excited to try to learn a real time player vs player video game when the only people they que up against are people with hundreds of hours of practice ahead of them”. The entire enjoyment of a pvp game is to improve and showcase your skills against higher skilled players, until you are on there level. In wow there is an added factor of being able to gear up through many methods, allowing you to get an edge up on even more skilled players. AB allows for multi fights where you can use your class advantages to target specific players or play a role in team fights, there is so much variability. People like you need to stop fucking playing the game and most of all stop making it sound like it’s impossible to get into. the game is from 2004 and extremely accessible and easy to learn for a modern day gamer. people like you are a cancer on WOW
Because pvp in classic is pretty bad.
Games are almost never competitive. One side usually gets rolled by the other. You’ll get randoms queued up against a full group on discord with full PVP sets. Blizzard needs to fix the lobby system and match like ranked groups together.
Wow PvP ain’t fun
Wow ruined bgs on retail then it followed classic
The Temu Rank 14 PVE honor grind absolutely killed BGs on the Anniversary servers, I don't even play Anniversary anymore because of it. Pushing rank in Vanilla was fun because you primarily did it in WSG/AB in Premade groups of other honor farmers. Hoping that TBC changes things.
Min Max - People spam AV for gear for raiding/ganking/trolling. I mean it is just the better way to play PVP right now till we get arenas.
Because r14 grind takes time. But not enough time anymore that people only rank 1 or 2 chars.
The grind is in that weird spot where it takes all your time yet still is worth enough for alts as well.
Imo they shouldve just done all time honor gain and buff HKs
If honor didnt have milestones, and just freely rolled over over week to week, id have been more willing to give WSG/AB a try. But when your at the higher ranks, it takes dozens of hours to gwt to your honor limit. If you fall even 1 honor point short, you throw away thousands of honor, and numerous hours of your time. But when AV matches take between 7 and 15 minutes in average, or a WSG that take longer ( ive tried wsg 3 times, all three were 45minute games held hostage by premades), why bother?
Thats what ive meant.
Theres been a pserver like that and it was completely fine
Blizzard is refusing to buff honor gain in AB and WSG. You can afk and lose and make way more honor in AV than if you tryhard in WSG with consumables.
The road to 14 is long. People don't want to make it any longer than it needs to be. It's been like this for as long as AV honor was best honor/hour.
They did in SoD. I have memories of spending time in AB instead of AV lol
I mean that's when AV wasn't playable because of the level brackets.
And still most people did the STV instead because it was new, more fun and gave better rewards. You could even earn AB rep by buying the lumber from the coin vendor too. Just like when no-one played WSG at level 25 because of the Ashenvale PVP event.
EDIT: I was unaware of the rep buffs to AB/WSG as I quit SOD around the end of Gnomeregan.
No they buffed honor gains in WSG and AB in phase 5 of sod which was BWL phase. Base honor gains were doubled, you could get multiple marks for losing the game, and turning in 3 marks gave 7500 honor. AB became the meta to rank and AV slowly died, not sure about WSG i only did AB.
WSG was also buffed but matches still could take forever, so people didn't play it as much. I'd join it once and awhile while I was in the queue just for a break doing something different.
Unfortunately they never buffed the triple turn in or AV turn in, so it was mainly speed running AB that became the meta rather than AV. WSG just had no "time limit" really so people didn't push it as much - but people got really crazy with rocket boots and stuff.
r/boneappletea
Once in a while
When classic came out our pre-made only farmed AB and we queued AV on AV weekends and played up to the soft cap and took turns ranking
I really think they eventually nailed how AB should work in SoD after a few iterations of "lose fast if you lose first fight" leading to a load of well contested and rewarding 3/2 games. It ended up being the most fun PvP I've had, consistently, ever.
This is peak r/classic lol.
Of all the subs I frequent, this sub has the most confidently wrong users by MILES
I love this sub man
Legit weighing in on level 60 PvP meta and AV preference while quitting p2 lmao. Can’t even.
P1 / P2 sod players who quit - love giving their take on end game SOD
No - you're confusing a couple things. They upped the honor for AB so it became the meta in SoD.
This wasn't about the leveling brackets thing - STV was fun too but that was different.