dbz
Here's something I did for fun. Trying to use the time rings to make Super, GT, and Daima work into canon.
Discussion
Now, for the sake of argument the events of Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z all occur the same across the main, GT, and Daima timelines.
The difference is that Trunks and Cell going back in time (and if you want to count it, the attempts to change history in extended media like Xenoverse) created new timelines by altering events. In the GT timeline, Beerus never awakens, which leads to GT's events, while Daima's timeline is the only one where the Demon Realm attacks Earth, fearing an invasion.
This is speculative and meant to be fun.
That’s a cool way to look at GT. I like it.
I like to think that at the end of Super somebody wishes that Beerus to never woke up, causing everybody not to know God Ki. As for Daima I still consider it within the main timeline, since even when it ends there are about 4 years of stuff to happen, so a potential season 2 could explain why Goku can't achieve SS4, Kaioshin gets fused again, etc.
Even if Beerus didn't wake up, wouldn't Frieza still get resurrected? And then probably win since Goku/Vegeta don't have SSB but Frieza still goes gold
Call it butterfly effect I guess?
Goku and Vegeta would be on earth and notice the Frieza force soldiers, murdering them in the process. The whole arc is gone.
Everybody else should have noticed them too, its PIS that they were able to gather the Dragon Balls, so maybe they'd have succeeded with Goku and Vegeta there.
That's not to say I have a problem with it. But since Battle of Gods, Bulma has had all 7 Dragon Balls in her possession "just in case", then she forgot about them the next time, indirectly justifying her decision to keep them, to using them every year for minor cosmetic surgery except conveniently when the story happens to actually need them.
But daima is part of the original timeline and is set before super
Cant be the same. Shin and Kibito are unfused, Goku states in chapter 1 of DBS that ssj3 is the final Saiyan form, and in the Moro arc we learn the direct evolution of 3 is god not 4
That's true but even though he called it Super Saiyan 4, he needs magic and his tail to activate this form so he could That's the only way to achieve that form It also could be a branch transformation like if you used primal energy instead of tapping into divine ki like what Goku and vegeta did to get access to their god forms
Thats why you don't make a form canon randomly... set before the newest series/arc where it isnt even a thought. Lmao.
people literally calling it canon because its made by toriyama
so basically anything to do with toriyama is automatically labelled as canon
retcons, the end of z can't happen in dbs because Vegeta and Chichi families are close in one year and Bulma looks young, on the next Bulma has to be old and it has to be the first time they meet in 5 years (Super Hero to EOZ)
How does Super Saiyan 4 fit into Super?
Through Toriyama shenanigans.
Best Explanation
For what get even though he was able to go back into the form when he turned into an adult in the show I think it was because of the namekien's still was affecting him and once said magic had dissipated he no longer could access that form. So that's why in Super he said that Super Saiyan 3 was his strongest form that he could access. Even though he was able to go super saiyan 4 in an early time but that was because of help/magic from an outside source and because he had his tail back.
Fingers crossed they reuse SSJ4 so we can get Goatgeta back
Well, they are canon now, so it's possible
For what get even though he was able to go back into the form when he turned into an adult in the show I think it was because of the namekien's still was affecting him and once said magic had dissipated he no longer could access that form
but Goku said he achieved it while training after Buu in the epilogue when talking to Vegeta
They didnt use it. 🤷♂️
He needed the namekian's magic to achieve it and couldn't replicate it on his own so stuck to SS3. Not difficult. At some point, Kibito and Shin were putting on their earrings and accidentally sequenced them to fuse again. Whoopsie!
Goku and co. don't talk about the demon realm because it's been years and not relevant. Goku either didn't hear or wasn't paying attention (or just didn't care) when Shin was mentioning gods and stuff during Daima.
I think Daima fits into continuity just fine. It fits better than parts of Z with itself (Trunks calls the Androids 19 and 20 at first and then later calls them 17 and 18. Goku can't breathe in space and yet is seen flying around in space more than once (plus all the Saiyans that go right Frieza in space around Planet Vegeta).
I swear, Dragon Ball fans don't understand DB at all. The story has all kinds of plot holes and inconsistencies because it's not that kind of story and Toriyama doesn't care. I don't care. It's just a dumb, fun manga.
Do the myriad continuity mistakes in Jurassic Park ruin the movie? No, Spielberg rightly believes that kind of stuff is irrelevant as long as the scene is engaging, and he's right.
Then why didn't vegeta use ssj3?
When would he? Goku gets knocked out in SS3 with a flick from Beerus. No point in Vegeta using it. He then immediately gets SSB. We don't even see him use SSG for years because he already Blue.
So he uses ssj2 in a dire situation. Making it the first time they use a weaker form in a dead or alive moment for the first time in DBZ, d super and daima. Right.
Hear me out, if you just ignore this list of plotholes, Daima fits perfectly in the continuity!
Do you people even listen to your own bullshit?
Daima doesn’t fit. It really doesn’t. That’s not the problem. The problem is that nobody can just take it for what it is and enjoy it.
Toriyama’s memory sucks and he wrote plotholes, because he simply forgot. It’s not that deep.
My point is, they're not plot holes when there's years between the series in-universe where anything could have happened, and the things people in this sub always take umbrage with aren't even plot holes like Goku not remembering Shin mention Beerus once in Daima when he wasn't even talking to Goku, or Goku not using SS4 in Super when Daima shows that he only unlocks it with help from Neva and states after that he wasn't even sure it was possible. Pretty easy to infer that he never used it before that and couldn't use it after without the magical assist.
He then gets SSG and then Blue immediately after which makes it a moot point.
And I agree with you. I'm saying, enjoying the shows/manga for what they are which is silly fun. Nitpicking random stuff in Daima is stupid when there's similar nitpicks you could make all across DB.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to question certain apparent contradictions
Super Saiyan 4 is the least of the potential continuity issues between Daima and Super. There are generally guesses people can put forward, and fairly logical ones, but until such a time comes to explain the discrepancy, certain differences range from, yeah, nitpicky, to irreconcilable contradictions regarding the DB world's greater cosmology
If Rymus is the ultimate authority of existence, why is Zeno presented as such? (One could guess that perhaps Zeno is Rymus's counterpart or offspring or something to that effect with equal standing, or total replacement)
Why are the Demon Realm dragon balls referred to as the "original" dragon balls when the super dragon balls are said to be the original? (One could argue that Demon Realm dragon balls were the first to be created from the super dragon balls, though with the revelation that the 18 universes came after the Demon Realm makes Zalama's role even more of a question mark)
If Kibitoshin previously used Buu to end their fusion, then regardless of however they fused again, why did they use the Namekian dragon balls and not just ask Buu for help again? (You could guess that Buu refused for some reason, or the manner in which the two fused again was unable to be broken by Buu's internal gases)
At the end of the day, I'm fine with just saying that Toriyama was either ok with having separate continuities because the project was fun, or that he considered both of them to be part of his vision for Dragon Ball, regardless of certain internal consistency errors. I usually say that for us, it just comes down to picking whichever of those interpretations we prefer
That you can make up a scenario that makes them fit is not the same as them actually fitting together. I can do that too, and say that GT happens in the main timeline and that Goku and Vegeta just stopped using god ki because they didn't like the smell of it.
1) why does Daima have to end perfectly lined up with Super when there's years between them and 2) the difference with GT is the creator said it's not part of the main timeline whereas Daima is
When did Toriyama say Daima and Super are the same continuity?
It was stated that daima was at least 6 months or so before super
Pretty easily, just assume that now the first time Goku fought Beerus he used Super Saiyan 4. We already have three versions of Battle of Gods (the movie, the anime and the manga), what difference does a 4th unseen version with Super Saiyan 4 make?
After that theres not really been a need for it and times Goku used Super Saiyan 3 were mainly to show that it was the next stage after Super Saiyan 2.
That’s actually a good explanation but I hate the fact that we even have to go through loops to explain our own lore.
Goku forgot it existed. It's fitting with how dumb he is in that series.
Not well. I guess you could say Goku wasn't happy with it and had trained ssj3 to be stronger than that early shitty version of ssj4 by the time beerus showed up at King Kai's planet.
Not good but it's all I got.
Daima is the most canon work since the manga, so yes it is part of the original timeline. But it clearly doesn't connect to Super, so that would be in an alternate timeline.
It's said to be about a month before super even starts
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you forgot the unseen timeline. The timeline that future trunks originally created.
My headcanon is that the unseen timeline is the one alternate zamasu comes from
I like this theory.
The only counterpoint I can think of, is that it was stated (by Whis I think) that Beerus created that timeline by destroying Zamasu. But since Whis didn't mention this at the time it happened, you could argue that this was just Whis making an assumption.
Swap Daima out for that and it can work
Are you talking about the timeline that the first time travel saved? The one that Trunks was going back and Cell killed him?
Yeah. That timeline is commonly referred to as the unseen timeline.
That one takes Daima's spot in this image since Daima is actually just canon
It's the diama ring as diama is the main timeline
just ignoring the rest of the timetravel done by trunks and cell
Yeah, those seven are already accounted for without headcanon.
Thats not how time rings work though
Daima is the main timeline
Please explain how SSJ4 fits into the main timeline.
It doesn't fit into, it is the main timeline. Toriyama was the most involved with Daima of any of the continuations, meaning it qualifies more as canon. So Super would be an alternate timeline like GT.
Narrative continuity is what determines if something is canon or not. Not simply the involvement of the creator in a particular storyline. That and the fact that DB, DBZ, and DBS are manga adapted to the screen, whereas Daima, GT, etc. are not. You can't shoehorn Daima in the DBZ to DBS continuity without retconning significant parts of the story. If you still stand by your argument, then you're effectively defending bad writing. Daima only fits narratively if it's the last series in an alternate timeline. You can't even put GT at the end of Daima the way it was all written.
They didnt use it. 🤷♂️
Future Trunks timeline is the main timeline, it’s the original
Technically speaking Cells timeline is the original.
the universe 12 time is technically the main timeline, but if we count universe 7, it would be Cell timeline,, in some point Trunks travelled to the past to find how desactivate androids, and after a while, Cell killed Trunks, returned and stayed it for years
You forgot the best timeline: the Abridged Timeline.
Its there though? Iy is labeled "main timeline"
I think Daima is part of the Main Timeline
Cant fit in either canon
Where's Xenoverse and Heroes timeline?
Where would you put the Z movies, maybe in the GT timeline since we saw Cooler in GT?
Probably this. All anime filler content from Classic to Z plus the movies are not canon to super but canon to GT.
The filler with Bulma and Ginyu frog is canon to Super, or maybe it was Resurrection F, I can't remember but in one of those they reference that filler when frog Ginyu takes over that minions body.
That isn’t filler. In canon Goku throws the frog, Ginyu switches, and thats the end of it
One problem, Daima and super are the same timeline though (and I could be wrong but isn’t Z becoming Black from future trunks timeline?)
Daima cant fit with either version of super due to too many contradictions and Zamas becoming Goku actually comes from a later version of the main timeline
Yes I know there is a contradiction of supreme Kai & kibito being unfused but I expect that to be a retcon just like the potara fusion no longer being permanent.
Potara not being permanent for mortals wasnt a retcon, it’s retroactive story telling which is a different thing. And there’s more contradictions than shin. In chapter 1 of super Goku states ssj3 is the final Saiyan form and in the Moro arc SSJG is shown to be the direct evolution of ssj3
My god I wish people would just stop this nonsense. They are separate continuities. Simple. Done.
i never knew what the actual reason was for the silver-colored one not being green.
It’s not because it’s the original timeline so idk why it would be different
I was under the impression that the timeline attached to the silver ring hadn't been "tainted" yet
The silver one is for the primary timeline, the green ones are branch timelines
Trunks really fucks up the timeline, like there's too many to count and realistically there should be way more time rings.
The "main timeline", the silver ring, would actually be the unaltered timeline in which nothing was changed. Where Goku dies to the heart virus and everyone else to the androids. Then Trunks defeats them, but is killed by Cell who steals his time machine. These culminating events create the altered timeline of Z/Super/GT/Daima that the audience follows, which would each have their own respective green time ring; Z/Super, Diama, GT.
And don't even get me started on how many timelines Future Trunks creates with his shenanigans
Not accurate at all
No Dragon Ball evolution?!
You forgot the movie timeline
Rings from universe 10 or 7?
What about the movies?
i think there’s like another cell timeline
Doesn't really work since you forgot about the unseen timeline.
He was simply showing him his forms. He’s not gonna show everything he has he also told Vegeta the same thing Goku is known to lie
Let me ask you a simple question, from which timeline did GT's future trunks came from? Or the Dragon Ball Daima one?
daima is main timeline
I don't understand why DB writers are always low-balling themselves, only 13 universes, only 23 planets in the universe that have life, there are only 6 timeliness but also a whole side mini series and game about the multiverses. It's like they don't plan anything out.
There should be a shit ton more timelines because Arale headbutted Beerus's meteor out of the way
Not quite, the timelines would be
Cell’s timeline
Future Trunks’s timeline
Manga super timeline (main)
Anime super timeline
Toeiverse (Gt, anime filler, and movies)
The altered timeline where Zamas snatched Goku’s body.
Daima
OG 3 movies timeline
Path to Power timeline
I don’t see how gt relates as its own timeline here.
The first altered timeline (i.e., the world created by Universe 12's Time Machine, the very first time machine), Cell's world, the unseen timeline (i.e., the world created by the Trunks of Cell's world's time traveling), Future Trunks's world, Goku Black's world (a.k.a., the original, unaltered present timeline), and Goku's world (a.k.a., the current, altered present timeline) equals six (6) total timelines. Later, a new timeline is created when Future Trunks and Mai travel back in time and prevent the Zero Mortals Plan, resulting in a world co-inhabited by two Future Trunkses and two Future Mais.
In the TV anime, because Zen-Oh simply erases the future Multiverse, the total number of timelines by the end of the "Future" Trunks Saga is seven (7), due to the existence of the new timeline; however, in the manga, because Zen-Oh erased Future Trunks's world itself, the total number remained the same, even after Future Trunks and Mai created a new timeline.
okay, but there's another timeline where the events go the same as 6th ring, except zamas was hakai'd
Daima is main timeline and GT doesn't exist(especially since Daima is main timeline, the only "timeline" GT would exist in is the OG DBZ that makes references to SSj Oozaru I think) but also there is this.
There is only 5 greens up there but maybe this could be explained by that timeline not being created yet(the second Future Trunks timeline)?
Daima cant fit into canon
G.T. isn't canon. Toriyama called "a grand side story", so it technically doesn't exist.
Toyotarou says GT was canon https://www.cbr.com/dragon-ball-super-toyotarou-canon/ - OP’s timeline explanation is the best I’ve seen to explain that
Still doesn't change the fact that GT could be a separate timeline.
He literally said he isn't in the place to determine what's canon or not and that was just what canon is for him, he even said the games are canon to him, by his logic even DB Evolution would be canon
No way db fans are now doing mental gymnastics to say gt is canon, that's a new level of being illiterate
Why do you think it’s so crazy to suggest GT was just a diff timeline, particularly since there are multiple time rings that are mysteries to us?
Because that's not how timelines work, the differences between timelines are related to the time travels made there, changing the timeline wouldn't make Beerus sleep for more 1000 years in gt's continuity
Bro really posted a link from cbr and thought he cooked lmao
That's nice. Toriyama has said otherwise
Daima isn't canon , super is the only haha
It goes.
Cells Timeline
U12 guys timeline made years ago
Unseen Timeline
Old Main Timeline (Blacks)
Future Trunks Timeline
New Main Timeline (Super after Beerus Hakais present Zamas)
Double Trunks Timeline.
The first 5 are in the OG manga, (we just don't know about U12 guys till super) and the unseen is never seen but can be deduced to exist. When we see the time ring box it starts with 5 rings so the math tracks
The other 2 are made in Super with Future Trunks being erased before the double Trunks is made.
We see Trunks Ring poof it's erased. We know of 4 timelines in "Z" but there's actually 5. There have been 7 timelines total, 6 currently exist.
There's no room for GT or Daima to have their own, unless they were made after super but you'd need more rings.
The only one you have wiggle room on is U12 guys. I like to imagine it's where the DB heroes characters come from, history being altered enough they have ss4 instead of God. But it's not GT just GT-esque, and there was never a time travelling Trunks.
I’ll allow it, if only for the possibility that Baby is out there in the main timeline and just hasn’t shown up yet.
Its curious because the main time is really the future trunks... goku fights cell thanks to the medicine... and as vefore trubks, cell comes, the Real Main Timeline is the one Cell kills trunks and go to the past.
DBS needs to be it's own timeline because of End of Z. the gods do not exist in the End of Z.
1- It was never outright stated gods doesn't exist in End of Z, we know for a fact the concept of Beerus existed since Z since he is the one that put elder kai in the z sword
2- DBS was stated to be the canon continuation of the original manga
3- End of Z is likely going to be retconed anyways
what was the original concept of the Old Kai being put in the Z Sword prior to Super?
Beerus was never hinted in Z what's so ever.
I also never heard of Super being the official canon continuation of Z. I heard that it's just a Canon story.
One of them Future Trunks completely fucked up the continuity of Z by creating too many timelines. only logical explanation.
End of Z shouldn't be retconed. it should stay the same.
Super should stray away from Z and be its own continuity.
what was the original concept of the Old Kai being put in the Z Sword prior to Super?
I may have worded poorly, what I was trying to say is that in Z it was stated that there is a guy who locked Elder Kai in the Z-Sword, and in dbs that's beerus, so we know for a fact that this guy exists even if super wasn't canon
I also never heard of Super being the official canon continuation of Z. I heard that it's just a Canon story.
here it's below the red title
One of them Future Trunks completely fucked up the continuity of Z by creating too many timelines. only logical explanation.
Future Trunks only created two timelines both in Z, the other ones were created by cell, beerus and the guy that invented time travel, and the timeline wasn't fucked up, it's a complex subject but is as complex as it was since Z, super didn't make anything more complex
End of Z shouldn't be retconed. it should stay the same.
It should since it doesn't follow super, which like I said was stated to be the canon continuation of db
oh damn, the late old timer really did it. Toriyama Sensei is based, haha.
I personally still think they should stray away from Z itself and have Super be it's own official continuation.
If I remember correctly, Pilaf gained access to every single timeline imaginable in DBS and sent Super Future Trunks and Super Future Mai to a similar Super Future timeline.
If someone can expand on that idea, it can make things very interesting.
I mean, that's not how timelines work but if you want to headcanon that i'm not going to elaborate
it's just an idea, mate
Super should be just as separate as GT and Daima seeing as though people keep skipping by the fact that it doesn't match up with the end of z chapters in the manga or anime.
Super was stated to be the canon continuation of the original manga, if it changes anything from Z it's a retcon
I REALLY don't use the word canon when talking Dragonball since there's several official canon/continuities. The original manga IS the definitive canon written completely by Akira Toriyama. The original anime goes to the end of z. Super is a spin off from the end of the Buu saga. GT is canon to the original anime including the movies which were only out of continuity due to breaks in production.
there's several official canon/continuities.
There aren't, dbs was the only media outright stated to be canon to the original manga, gt was called a side story by toriyama, the movies parallel dimensions, etc, you could also say daima is canon because it was written by him, but no one ever said "Daima is canon" but DBS was officially stated to be the canon continuation to the Dragon Ball manga, if you think the Dragon Ball manga is the definitive canon saying that super is just a spin off is pure bias
No one ever says anything is canon when it comes to Dragonball. GT is the official sequel from end of z. Super is a spin off from the end of the Buu saga. Daima is also another spinoff from end of Buu saga slight before super. Nobody has came out and said what is and isn't canon because truth be told, Toriyama never cared about that.
No one ever says anything is canon when it comes to Dragonball.
They literally do, like I said, super was LITERALLY stated to be canon
The canonical sequel to Dragon Ball that continues the storyline ater the Majin Boo arc.
Idk why the dragon ball fan base is so fixated in saying things they don't know about
GT is the official sequel from end of z.
It's not, Toriyama literally stated GT is a side story
Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball
Toriyama never cared about that.
He literally did, hence why he clarified that the dbz movies were parallel dimensions, stop putting your headcanons in the words of the db staff
I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”.
Toriyama has NEVER said the word canon when describing Dragonball, like at all.
GT was started by Toriyama and Toei to be the sequel to Dragonball with Toriyama leaving due to the increasing anime/manga fatigue and the fact that he'd been working for a decade plus straight.
Nothing you said in those last 2 lines said anything about canon. He never cared about it and was notoriously known to write around things already established which is why the movies are mostly out of continuity.
Toriyama has NEVER said the word canon when describing Dragonball, like at all.
He didn't he used other words with the same meaning as canon, but shueisha did use canon
GT was started by Toriyama and Toei to be the sequel to Dragonball with Toriyama leaving due to the increasing anime/manga fatigue and the fact that he'd been working for a decade plus straight.
That's a straight lie, Toriyama only worked in the character designs of GT he never said that GT was meant to be the sequel of DB
Nothing you said in those last 2 lines said anything about canon. He never cared about it and was notoriously known to write around things already established which is why the movies are mostly out of continuity.
he is literally saying there's a main story, you can't be that illiterate
Shueisha said GT is canon.....
Toriyama started GT with Toei creating the initial designs and the gt name before giving it to the anime writers and artists.
He never said that, he's dead too so it's well past time to stop lying on Toriyama's name.
Shueisha said GT is canon.....
It didn't
Toriyama started GT with Toei creating the initial designs and the gt name before giving it to the anime writers and artists
Toriyama was never supposed to write gt, in fact if he designed the characters and the name the inicial plot of the show was already done
He never said that, he's dead too so it's well past time to stop lying on Toriyama's name.
It's literally in the quote I mentioned
I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”.
And I'm just going to ignore the last part of your comment of how insensitive you was, you're just trying to create excuses to say that there isn't a canon, if you have a brain you already noticed that too
Where’s Dragon Ball Evolution🤨🤨
Erased by Zeno.
As it should be!
They got some hobbits to throw that shit into a volcano.
its canon so main timeline
The true timeline.
what's that?
you're better off not knowing