i felt goku vs cell was a dull fight because cell saga was presented as goku passing the torch to gohan, only to be the same thing in buu saga, goku beating up the main villain, what i was thinking is: goku forteit against cell, the events develop as usual and gohan kills cell, goku stays dead, so in buu saga it becomes gohan's duty to defeat him, as he's not strong enough, goku would come, only to buy time so gohan makes the ritual to unlock his ultimate form, then gohan battles buu, vegata and goku show up to support gohan and with a final push they beat buu, grounding the new generation to take the lead from now on having a character that finds a balance bewtween his life as a scholar and a warrior
Maybe, maybe not
In any case, that just didn't work for Toriyama. He wanted Goku as the protagonist and decided Gohan worked better as a supporting character on the sidelines. Even this:
a character that finds a balance bewtween his life as a scholar and a warrior
is what Gohan finally achieves in Super Hero, though that was only at the urging of Akio Iyoku. Gohan wasn't going to have a major role in SH until he suggested it to Toriyama
Not really toriyama wanted gohan as the new protagonist but had to change it bc of popularity votings in the Shonen jump magazine
That's a myth that's been debunked many times. If he was lying when he said that it just wasn't working for him, then it would make no sense to change Gohan out when he was polling ahead of Goku at the time and say it was because of the polls
yeah, but sometimes i like to imagine the series if they took that path
I've always hated how dirty toriyama did Gohan. I think the buu saga is so ingrained in all of us by now, we always wanna try to figure out how to insert Gohan in that story better. I like to wonder though, why did he even have to become THAT Gohan that we see in buu saga? As in, you just finished writing the cell saga ending with gokus death at the hands of cell, with gohans hubris being a major factor in that. Everything he learned, what will he look like in 7 years?
Well if you said "he basically completely gives up fighting and is actually weaker than he is right now after beating cell" wouldn't that be worst case scenario? Why did we have to go down this route to begin with? Kinda thought, after watching his father die when he could've saved him, would be like an "uncle Ben moment" moment? Maybe not THAT 100% but I just hate the idea that he loses all motivation for fighting for uhhhhh (*checks notes) the rest of his life.
I just personally feel like yeah he would take a year or two to chill out on all the training and fighting, but then wants to improve his skill and learn more. I would've loved to see a Gohan that grows up highly educated, who blends an appreciation for martial arts/fighting but more from the angle of someone who wants to study it and learn more. Whereas goku takes a 100% "I wanna improve my fighting cuz I love battle" Gohan could take a "I wanna improve and learn more because that's who I am, I love learning about new techniques and transformations for the knowledge of it"
Toriyama wanted Gohan to be new lead but he couldnt write him well and went back to Goku ruining all the young fighters
Honestly after 100 episodes of Super and a movie where Goku and Vegeta kept stealing the show, Super Hero was the best thing Toriyama could have ever written. Sadly Daima went back to the status quo
It's an obvious writer copout. The Cell saga ended with Goku deciding that he should stay dead and that Gohan should be the one protecting the planet. Toei slams this message a lot in the Bojack movie and second Broly movie.
Gohan wouldn't work as the main character simply because Gohan doesn't have a personal/internal driver to get better as a fighter. He's a reactive character who only fights as a response to some sort of crisis. He's basically like a western superhero, which is off-brand for Dragon Ball.
Dragon Ball, fundamentally, is a story that explores personal growth through internal motivation. Goku embodies that better than anyone else in the story. Gohan doesn't. If Gohan became the main character, the core identity of Dragon Ball would be tarnished.
Goten would probably work better because he seems to like fighting at least more than Gohan. Regardless, the main character needs to be someone who proactively sets out on a journey of personal growth, specifically involving combat.
This is one of the best rationales I've seen for why Gohan doesn't work as a protagonist for Dragonball. Bravo.
you make an incredibly good and structured point, i shall remove my imaginary hat good man
Do you think Goten would be the better choice simply bc he “likes” fighting more? (I could see him getting more discipline and then “growing” but then isn’t he just a Goku clone and therefore uninteresting?)
Devil’s advocate I could see them giving an external motivator to Gohan that makes him seem less generally soft (imo) that would make it fun to watch.
Yes. That reason alone is why Goten would be more fitting, because that's the central theme of Dragon Ball. Him being a Goku clone is a valid criticism though.
And no, the motivator has to be internal.
Most of the arcs in Z weren't started by Goku's strive to improve however. They were started by an evil threat emerging and the heroes needing to get stronger because of it. At best you could argue the Android arc only happened how it did because of Goku's fighting spirit, but that's pretty much it. Goku was largely just as reactionary as Gohan in Z. The only real difference is that Gohan doesn't keep up his training in between threats, but he's willing to train and step up to the plate if necessary. It's more than possible to write a story with that kind of protagonist - hell, that's pretty much the majority of superhero stories.
That's the plot. Not the fundamental theme. The fundamental theme is still self-improvement to get stronger. The plots, such as external threats, are what test that fundamental theme. Goku having an internal drive to be stronger becomes a valuable asset against external threats.
Gohan doesn't have that. He has a natural hidden power, but no desire to get better. That basically just makes him Superman. But Dragon Ball is not that kind of story.
Not only that, but these external threats aren't just random external threats. They all tie back into the theme of self-improvement. The Saiyan and Frieza Saga explored Goku's identity as a Saiyan. His whole life, he sees his drive to fight as an individual trait, and then he finds out he's actually part of a ruthless warrior race that naturally loves to fight.
His speech against Frieza as a Super Saiyan (the speech that Funimation butchered) is him coming to terms with that. And someone like Cell and the Androids are a direct foil to self-improvement, as these are beings created/modified in a lab to get stronger. Buu is probably the only one who's kind of just a random villain.
I appreciate the in-universe rationale, but being realistic Gohan could have been written to be a totally sufficient fit with ease.
Gohan may not obsess over fighting for the sake of it like Goku, but he does enjoy it - and most importantly loves protecting people. Gohan has a perfectly sufficient framework to be a compelling protagonist who balances his normal life and super hero life (literally Superman). Cell provides a more than sufficient cause for Gohan's character to grow with those values.
However, Toriyama didn't feel like it was right for who he felt Gohan "was"; or between the lines it wasn't the type of protagonist he wanted to write. Can't fault the author for either.
Buuut we can also acknowledge that in keeping Gohan from an "unfit" role, his character was left with no role. He has been written for nearly 30 years as a non-fighter, convinced to fight, fails, learns the value of training, stops, rinse repeat. Personally, for a character that is a pretty abysmal narrative fate.
Then you're no-longer arguing for Gohan, as we all know him, to be the main protagonist. You're arguing for a character, that happens to be named Gohan, but with a radically different personality, to be the main protagonist. When people argue for Gohan being the main protagonist, they usually mean the Gohan we currently know and have.
Gohan would've had to have been written differently from the very beginning. From the very onset, he is portrayed as a timid boy who doesn't have any interest in fighting.
If Gohan were written differently, we would have seen massive differences the moment we first meet him. We simply would have gotten a vastly different character that also happens to be named Gohan. He would have been excited about training with Piccolo, the arrival of the Saiyans, and have found thrill in fighting the Ginyu Force and Frieza. And yeah, you could argue that he was only 4-6 years old, but even Goku as an infant was rough and rowdy and only became more tame because he bumped his head.
Writing Gohan to fit as the main character would have resulted in a radically different character.
Why the hell do you want a Superman-like story in Dragon Ball?
Again, Dragon Ball is not a story of superheroism, at least not like a western one. It's a shonen anime where protagonists tend to be proactive with a personal goal. Turning it into a superhero story is utterly off-brand. It would be like turning Game of Thrones into The Lord of the Rings. Two stories with completely different core identities.
The core identity of Dragon Ball is watching a character that loves to fight and that love and drive bumps up against external forces.
This is a massive exaggeration, especially considering throughout most of the Buu Saga he was the main protagonist, and shares the role well until the climax where he is removed for Goku. That last encounter with Buu, a couple lines of dialogue, and his role as a bystander in EoZ were the extent of his canon scholarly path. People seem to not realize a majority of Gohan's "scholar" characterization is from GT's depiction and fan discussion that revolved around a bad dub with filler for decades until Super.
I digress: As I said, the events of the Future Trunks, the Androids, Perfect Cell, and particularly Android 16s speech are more than sufficient narratively for his coming-of-age story where he embraces the value of continuing to train to protect the people and his planet following a several year time skip.
Hardly radical. In fact, a lesson they've written his character to learn repeatedly, but been unable to commit to not because of some deep analysis of Gohan, but because of how his character was handled from a writing perspective - poorly.
Funny considering how heavily you yourself are projecting your perception of Gohan.
His timid nature with Piccolo is because he is a scared child, against Nappa he tried and froze. But you've neglected to acknowledge other aspects of his progression.
He then returned to the battlefield to save his father against Vegeta. He volunteered to go to Namek out of a sense of duty. He stood up to Frieza and his men however he was able. He trained with Piccolo and his father for three years to prepare for the Androids by choice, followed by another year in the Time Chamber. He grew up to fight crime in his downtime, and was excited to train his younger brother for a tournament and again spar with his deceased father.
It's called a character arc.
Between the massive amount of Superman that is already in Dragon Ball and putting of words in my mouth - I have to assume you are arguing in poor faith.
I am simply pointing out that the "Gohan isn't fit as protagonist!" is false. A hero where his conflict is not just the foes, but living a normal life, is a compelling protagonist role. It's literally the Buu Saga, except his didn't kill the bad guy at the end.
And there's no reason Gohan can't be that, because it's a minor addition to his motivations that is narratively supported.
Dragon Ball does not have deep characterization. "Maybe it's my Saiyan Blood, but I'm starting to have fun..." between his existing dialogue of protecting people is a pretty easy tweak.
No he wasn't. This is an exaggeration. Not anything I said.
He was the main character for the high school parts, but that's it. The focus he was given in the Buu Saga isn't much different than when Piccolo merged with Kami. In that moment, it felt like the show was setting up Piccolo to be the guy who destroys the main villain. That doesn't make someone the main character. That just means that that's the trajectory of the plot in that given moment. Goten and Trunks as Gotenks had similar focus on them. There was heavy implication that they would defeat Buu, and this was happening simultaneously with Gohan training with the Z-Sword. The plot at this moment was nothing more than "who will be the one to defeat Buu?" Neither of them were solidified as the main character.
Ultimately it was Goku who was at the center of the crisis being solved with his Spirit Bomb.
"Train just to protect people" is not what Dragon Ball goes for. That's too much of a shift in identity. It's ultimately why Toriyama couldn't get Gohan to work as the protagonist.
Bleach has this premise. You can watch that. Ichigo is reactive. He only trains out of necessity.
What massive amount of similarities are there? Other than the vaguely similar origin story for Goku, and flying abilities, what about Superman do you see in Dragon Ball?
Literally countless western superhero stories.
The problem isn't whether or not this is a compelling idea. I like western superheroes. The problem is it's off-brand for Dragon Ball. Many would say that both Game of Thrones and The Lord of the Rings are compelling. But if one became the other, it would be a violation of identity. Game of Thrones needs to stay Game of Thrones. The Lord of the Rings needs to stay being The Lord of the Rings. And Dragon Ball needs to stay being Dragon Ball and not be a story about a simple protective hero.
Dragon Ball is not a western superhero story. Whoever is the protagonist has to be someone with an internal driver to fight. It can be someone with a different personality to Goku, but they would at least need that in common. That's the ultimate theme Dragon Ball explores. Gohan cannot fill that role. It's why Toriyama himself couldn't get Gohan to fill that role, and it's why Toriyama showed resistance in turning Goku into a typical superhero. What you want out of Dragon Ball isn't the type of story Dragon Ball aims to tell.
There is a massive reason. He's already had years of character development that has built him up to be someone who doesn't like to fight. It will NEVER work with him.