Surely if you sign a contract with bonuses that rely on revenue targets you attach a clause that if projects get delayed the benchmark point also shifts along with it?
I mean…
It’s not uncommon for shit like this to happen. One of my parents basically lost a million bucks because the board turned down a deal to sell the company instead to tank its price and buy it themselves.
Don’t they have a fiduciary duty to the shareholders that would prevent that in theory?
That's... not even remotely close to what's happening here. I have to believe it's b/c so many people didn't read past the headline that they didn't also get the context that this payout isn't even remotely possible in the first place with the sales figures and time left. That's sort of why it's being delayed: the game is not in a good enough state to sell well.
And in the immortal words of Mr. Miyamoto "a delayed game is eventually good, a rushed game is bad forever".
Sure, I mean I was just replying to the other message to share that the scenario they were talking about being unlawful, was not totally uncommon
But that's my point: nothing about any of this is unlawful and is the right thing to do. The only reason you'd think that is if you didn't read the article and reacted solely to the headline that gives the impression the decision was made to screw the developers which is unlawful.
I mean I just read the article and it doesn’t say they wouldn’t hit the targets anyway.
not even remotely close to what's happening here
They didn't say it was.
Its not like employees have much choice over these specifics.
Sure but employees are usually at the mercy of the employer. Do you want to make a living making a game like Subnautica? Then you sign an imperfect contract or work somewhere else.
Another publisher added to the blacklist 👍
Well guess I’m never playing Subnautica 2. Corporate fucks ruin everything.
Pirate that shit
yo ho ho, and a bottle of "GO FUCK YOURSELF, KRAFTON"
you are being optimistic saying that it will be even worth pirating. Iirc not one dev from original subnautica or below zero is actually working on 2, so the chances are pretty low
It’s still the same development team, just different management tbf
ah mb then, thought the original devs went to work in other studios or smthg
We’ll see if it’s worth the time to do so.
I just removed it from my steam wishlist.
I would love to create a company and have artists run the artistic stuff, but have a project manager to oversee timelines. I wouldn’t announce anything until the game is dang close to being released and everyone is happy, which might be impossible, but it would be close.
Sad thing is, I’m pretty sure most execs and investors don’t give even half of a fuck what makes artists and other workers happy. They only care about numbers going up.
That’s the sad part. I understand being within a budget and timelines, but it should not come as a detriment to the art. That’s the sad part. I hope they take a look at Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 or games like that they allow their artists and creators to do what they want. As long as it is on time and on budget, full send in my eyes.
You’re right, there does have to be a balance between budget/timeline and creative expression otherwise the project would be a money pit. Though those timelines often need to be more realistic. It would definitely be nice if the executives and money men understood that overworking artists/animators/programmers/etc. will have a negative impact on the long term quality of their work. Having these brilliant people subjected to 80+ hour work weeks is insane and shortsighted.
I will admit that, as an artist, I’m quite biased lol.
Same here. Can't support this scummy bullshit.
"We are delaying this game to ensure it meets the standards of our audience"
"FUCK YOU CORPORATE FUCK HOW DARE YOU DELAY"
"We have decided to rush this out early"
"FUCK YOU CORPORATE FUCK HOW DARE YOU RUSH"
And they literally just revealed a gameplay trailer. Fucking atrocious.
It's unironically exactly like Duke Nukem Forever released a gameplay trailer and within a week or so it got delayed another 6 months. But then it finally released to scathing reviews and low sales. So maybe atrocious isn't the word
I wouldn't care about this delay if it wasn't for the fact that it is egregiously obvious that it was done so that krafton wouldn't have to give the devs this payout.
Also, it's an early access launch. It's not supposed to be finished or polished.
Kerbal Sea Program 2
Welp there goes the game, cuz no way the devs don't sue right? Would be insane not to go after this bullshit. Suing to try and get 250m your corporate overlords literally stole from you - firing director and who knows what else, forcing a delay, etc - to make SURE you can't reach their goals for the bonus. I don't think that's a great environment for game deving
They signed the contract. It's highly unlikely they have any leg to stand on here from a legal standpoint.
Just because a contract is signed doesn't automatically make it enforceable. You can't sign a contract to do something illegal for example.
Exactly this. You can technically put anything in a contract you want and someone could sign it. However, it does not make it legal or enforceable when things like contracts are in dispute usually it’s the judge who decides based on their interpretation of the law.
its not like they killed anyone or commit fraud. There is nothing illegal about deciding who has the power to delay a product.
Downvote me all you want; unless they can prove that krafton breached the contract they will lose in court.
people sign dumb contracts all the time. that is what happened here.
I mean if you sign a contract that says "we get this bonus if we make this much in sales". Then the company makes choices that force you to not be able to make more money in sales to reach that bonus. I could easily see that being illegal lol.
Granted this is South Korea. Doubt they have any rights. Same as US
They can argue about an unfair power balance within the contract.
Something along the lines of the payout being determined by a sales goal to a specific date, when the start of sales is determined and was delayed by the ones responsible for paying out if the goal is reached.
My guess would be, that the cutoff date for the sales goal would be shifted equivalent to the delay in release.
So if the release was supposed to by May 1 2025 for example and the sales goal was until July 1 2025. But the release was shifted to July 1 2025, the sales goal would also be shifted to September 1 2025 accordingly.
I feel like surely if you signed a contract saying that you'd give them a payout for hitting a certain revenue target, and then suddenly take over leadership and make it effectively impossible to meet that target just before the deadline, that's some kind of breach of contract or something.
At the very least, it is very foul play, whether it's illegal I'm not sure (and I don't think anyone could really know without seeing the contract) but it really seems like it shouldn't be legal
Every publisher out there is a scumbag it seems
* Every publicly owned company
Gotta love that this site hides this comment by default…
What about Devolver?
How can that be legal? "I have to pay you if you make money but i control if you make money or not by denying to release your product."
It isn't in most jurisdictions.
The contract should state a start of sales period.
So if this is shifted the cutoff for the sales goal should be shifted accordingly.
From what I've heard, the contract wasn't specifically about subnautica 2 though, it was just for overall studio revenue and started like years ago. But subnautica 2 will probably be their biggest launch ever so it's clear that would always be the determining game.
Dragging it though courts until other side runs out of money probably ended up being cheaper that paying out bonus.
The lesson in this… keep your company and game and don’t sell it to someone else.
$250M was the bonus, owners still got $500M in 2021…
Is that a lot for an indie studio? I know subnautica sold well but that still seems high.
When you buy something, you’re buying all their future profits.
A quick google says EA is valued ~ 20x EV/EBITDA.
Assuming something similar ( a big assumption) , and no additional debt (another big assumption) that would mean $25M per year of EBITDA ( so before Interest and Taxes and other stuff)
And now they are out of a job and a game. I guess different things matter to different people, but I’m sure they weren’t broke after the first game.
They want to pay out up to a million per 100 employees. It sounds like they could do the thing and still have $400m left over after giving every early employee $1m
There goes my expectations for this one. I will erase it from my hype box, and who knows?! Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised in the future.
The delay is just to screw the devs out of a bonus so I wouldn't say this is a bad sign for the game itself, per se.
Yeah that’ll surely motivate the devs to work hard and make a great game
/s because I feel this might be necessary
The beatings will continue until morale improves mentality.
Is it wrong for me to think the devs might just want to make a good game? I certainly wouldn't be working any more overtime or anything, but I think most people become game devs because they want to make a good game.
Huh? Everyone thinks the devs want to make a good game. You seem to be glossing over the soul crushing event of working towards a huge bonus just to get it taken away not because you failed, but because your boss doesn’t care enough about you to actually pay you for it.
Devs are humans too lol
An unhappy worker is a bad worker. Don’t expect devs to put proper effort in if their company screws them over
Nah, it's a pretty bad sign. The original creators of the game have been fired, and the people doing this shit are the people in charge of how the game ends up. No way this game doesn't end up a complete shit show
Im not giving money to these blood suckers lol
I’m genuinely wondering if it could possibly be the opposite? If dev managers were rushing to get it out in time to get the bonus without it being anywhere close to ready.
Not that I’m siding with publishers over developers. Just wondering what actually happened here.
They dont even try to hide their greedy corporate bullshit anymore
What a fkn mess
That's as bad as that time Bethesda didn't give Obsidian a bonus because New Vegas had a metacritic score of 84 instead of 85.
I actually think this is still wat worse. The other one was definitely fucked, but they technically didn't fulfill their end of the bargain. In this scenario, the company made it impossible to even fulfill their end
Man, they're doing their damned best to have awful press about this game.
Another KSP 2 situation brewing? Damn did they do the devs dirty.
Corpo scumbags.
Either the devs wanted to release it prematurely in order to get a $250m payout, or the publishers want to delay it to avoid paying $250m. Not really enough info to make an opinion either way.
i'd 99% of the time trust the devs over the publisher. the game is the fruit of their labor and carries their reputation - the publisher is just there to make money and will pick up another studio whenever its convenient. The game IP means nothing to them
$250M to a studio of 100 people is enough to set many of them up for retirement. You wouldn’t sacrifice on the quality the fruit of your labor to make it be the last time you ever had to labor?
Ye but didn't these same devs fuck up the expansion for Subnautica? I remember reading the game was no ready for release few days ago, so releasing now would smell of cashing out.
The ousted lead designers said the game was ready for early access. Krafton fired them and replaced them with a talking head. Now suddenly the game 'doesnt have enough content' according to the new lead.
It's sketchy as fuck and paints a pretty clear picture.
Can you “prematurely” put a game into early access?
Baldurs Gate 3 was in EarlyAccess for 3 years with just the first act and still was a best seller/goty.
I totally feel and agree with you. No one deserves to be slaved with that long of a week, unless they love to do it and are paid accordingly. Those two hand in hand will produce such a great game. I am always for a “get your job done on a somewhat tight schedule and we will leave you alone”, but this is usually never how it is.
For example, you see the Medal of Honor over abuse on creators and not allowing the artists/creators to do their thing and then Call of Duty came about to crush the industry. I appreciate your work, no matter what it is. Artists get the shit end of the stick.
Something tells me this game is going to be dogshit. Lol
I worry for tango studios
I would assume the contract for the sales goal has a start of sales date.
If this is shifted, the sales goal should likely be shifted accordingly.
Won't be buying this game. I'm tired of rewarding greedy behavior. I don't need any video game that bad.
Called it. The dev vlogs so vague about anything playable.
They can easily avoid this bombing by amending the $250m payout time line into 2026 if the real reason is because they want to deliver the best possible game.
If not then they’re corpo scum…
Why would they do that if they found a way to avoid paying a quarter billion dollars? They got what they wanted: the game is reportedly almost finished.
reportedly almost finished
It's not. It's ready for Early Access, according specifically to the ousted CEO.
Subnautica was in Early Access for 3 years, so this game is likely years off being finished, even if it were up for sale today.
It still has to sell to make money.
Instead of speculating on things I know nothing about, I’ll instead focus on the fact that they are delaying the game to add more content (and hopefully to not force “crunch” on the devs). Sounds good to me!
It doesn't bot boi.
The game was coming out purposefully in an unfinished state. This gives devs and the community time to work together to finish crafting something beautiful.
Instead it's been repossessed by venture capitalists who always destroy stuff like this. Suck it dry for all they can before dumping the husk and moving on.
Maybe stop doing their work for them.
The game was coming out purposefully in an unfinished state.
Ya, it's called early access. It's the same as they did with the original game.
I'm not sure why you think we're arguing.
Who said anything about arguing? I was pointing out an important bit of context that your statement missed.
I didn't miss your shitty tone for sure.
Are you going to cry about it all day or do you think you can cope?
I was so excited for the second one after replaying the first and below zero for the 3rd time recently.
That is unfortunate. This was one of the games I was looking forward to playing this year. I guess it’s a good time to buy the first one and play through it fully
If Unknown Worlds feels confident that can deliver on time and Krafton is delaying to avoid paying out the bonus, then Unknown Worlds needs to get a lawyer involved ASAP.
Fellow developers who are starting new studios, please, PLEASE make your companies into co-ops and keep them PRIVATE. We need more studios who have ethical business practices that do not sell out to shareholders. This shit has got to stop.
The desire of Krafton is to have the very best version of Subnautica 2 available for its early access
“Oh many sorry, we need to add more content before the previews go out.” Wut? That doesn’t pass the sniff test. It’s early access. The whole point is that it’s limited in content.
So, is this a potential lawsuit? Obv I have no idea how those would work with smth like this, but cmon, it’s extremely obvious
Everyone is shitting on Krafton, which they thoroughly deserve, but I'm more curious about why the fuck the UW leadership signed this deal at all?
Giving the publisher power to fire the leadership and delay the game, thus avoiding paying the bonus is insane.
Very much a "game developer creates company, company unexpectedly hits big, founder signs contract they don't understand" situation.
Either they didn't consult with a lawyer or they should be suing the fuck out of the ones they did consult with for absolutely not acting in their best interests, because any lawyer than lets their client sign a contract like that deserves having their license revoked.
The game was ready to go...
What a load of crab dung. They could made money and pay out the 250 million to the 200 staff. Instead, chose to keep the profit to themselves.
This is a definite warning to anyone wanting to sell their game IP but I guess to each their own.
Who doesn't love a bit of corporate greed, and to think I was looking forward to this...
Another game into the "won't be buying" bin, sad to see
Why is the assumption that this means the publisher is fucking over the devs? Its a possibility but its also completely possible that the game isn't ready.
The person they fired, who was the game director said it was ready for Early Access release -NOW-.
They're literally delaying this to avoid the payout.
The man who would have received a massive portion of that $250 million is not an unbiased source of information. All im saying is we do not have the information to make a judgement.
If the game was released in a shitty state just to ensure they hit revenue targets this sub would be rioting and screaming "cash grab".
Unknown Worlds is known to release really decent Early Access builds. I believe him over a company that stands to keep 250million dollars.
One party stands to keep 250 million, and the other party stood to make 250 million. You can't trust either side to tell the full truth.
Both options suck for the player, though. This will hurt the game either way.
Not either way. The game suffers because corporate greed. No need to defend these dickheads. Most things aren't equal.
Regardless of whether the delay was warranted, the game will suffer because of it. I'm not defending anyone.
The fire them cos of a buyout is that even legal it like if u marry get divorced then claim the ticket after
Wow. Can't wait for the game to sell well and the developers to get fired anyway. This industry is very cutthroat and uninviting to someone who has to provide for a household (most skilled people).
Fucks sake...was really looking forward to this. Wouldn't be surprised if a ton of employees just bail and it never releases. Idiots...
This saddens me, I was truly looking forward to playing this one, but now they have lost me as a customer. Corporate greed strikes again.
I so wanted to support Unknown Worlds after Natural Selection 2 and Subnautica but I’m going to skip Subnautica 2 because this is extremely shitty behavior on their new Owner’s part
Good. I doubt people will remember this game once GTA 6 comes out
subnautica is so fundamentally different from GTA, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other lmao
Does anyone still care about GTA at this point? Also this game does not have the same target audience as GTA lol.
Yeah I still do care? So what? Why the hell do you care?
Krafton delays the game, presumably to avoid having to payout $250 million, thus screwing Unknown Worlds employees out of the bonus.
Replaced studio leadership to avoid paying a bonus.
Fuck, not even Activision and EA were this shitty about bonuses.
Apparently EA are pretty decent to work for, it's the customers they fuck over.
My sister in law works for ea and they really take care of her. She went through a rough patch when she left riot and they gave her an extra signing bonus so she cluld catch up on bills and its been total night and day vs riot.
I can’t imagine a game whose fan base is that actively toxic has a good office culture.
shrug they do. Look i dont even like ea games, i just like how they treat her.
Oh I meant Riot not EA
Oh riot was fucking awful. It was an absolute nightmare and Im really sad what she went through, it wrecked it mental health and she had to take severla months for herself. Evil fucking company.
Didn't they have a whole thing with people farting on female employees and stuff?
Also perhaps a rumour, but it came to me from a reliable source but I have heard of a riot employee in my country with whom you should not let your female friends have unattended drinks when around them. Unsure if he is still with the company or not though as it was years ago.
Very glad to be out of that community.
I don’t mean to pry into personal details of one’s life, but working at riot has been a dream of mine and I recently applied for an internship there for which I have an upcoming interview. Could you share a little more about how she was treated? I want to know what it is I’m chasing.
So i am going to preface this with her position was not your typical position. She was high up in a front facing position with the public. But she was promised a lot of autonomy, they would let her implement her vision and basically everything was a lie. She was challenged on every front, demeaned for her ideas and the executives which were above her basically blocked any idea that challenged something they had set up. Riot is also very cult like in their mentality, and if you're in the clicks it can be great but the second you are out you are cut out of everything. They were very stubborn, set in their ways, and the she was forced to take the blame for decision she had no control over.
Well gotta unite against the fans that hate you lol.
Yeah, I've known some people who've worked at EA, and especially in recent years they don't sound like the worst studio to work for.
A LOT of the mistakes the rest of the industry is making today are the mistakes EA was making 10-20 years ago.
It's not that EA is GOOD by any measure, but they're ahead of the curve when it comes to being shit.
Until you get laid off.
[deleted]
That whole shitstorm is precisely why they're better to work for now.
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There's a world of difference between pretty decent and great fucking.
Spoken like someone who has never worked in nor spoken to anyone who has ever worked in the industry. It isn't just the customers they fuck over.
Edit: Downvotes from other people who have also never worked in the industry, nice haha. Just spitting truths here.
Edit 2: If anyone bothered to personally speak to anyone who was affected by their recent change in work from home policy (openly discriminating against disabled staff and those who were hired in full knowledge that they live nowhere near an EA office), then you would understand where I'm coming from, and that's just a recent example.
“My dad worked at Blizzard guys, eat my entire ass, my voice is copyrighted, reeeeeee”
I hope it was worth it bud, you made the list.
EA is one of the nicest companies to work in the industry. Ask any Dev who has worked for them.
I did a few weeks ago, when they were withdrawing work at home schemes which put disabled staff (i.e. multiple friends) in peril of losing their employment, fucking idiot.
(They have changed a lot since the days of ea_spouse, but they still do shitty things often)
All I did was point out that the person didn't know what they were talking about, weird takes coming in from that. But that's Gamers™ for you.
Lmao I haven't seen this level of "MY DAD REALLY SERIOUSLY WORKS FOR MICROSOFT" energy since being screamed at by 12-year-olds on Xbox Live.
Bro Ive been in the industry forever and ever. And I and many many others are in office, even though we don't need to be currently (until our company makes "the call") and we enjoy it. I'm sorry for your disabled friends but literally a few years ago working remote wasn't even an option, anywhere, and your disabled friends would've had no jobs. Also I think being remote does ruin a lot of crap, especially communication between departments so I don't hold a grudge about companies wanting their employees back in office. Don't talk sh*t about an otherwise very employee-generous company because you have some friends effectively taking advantage of a situation that doesn't even exist anymore. There's plenty of remote only indie houses they can apply there.
Sounds like Krafton
Feels like they fucked up bad signing whatever contract it was with them.
There should be some kind of clause that if the publisher is the one who personally decides to delay it, that they have to pay them anyway.
This, or there is more to the story, we don't know yet. Given they made the evil in-game company Altera, Unkown Worlds should have known better
Nah Activision was, it’s why most of IW left after CoD MW2
You should look into what Bobby Kotick and Activision did to Vince Zampella and Jason West. Story played out almost exactly the same as this one except with the biggest video game franchise of all time and with a lot more backdoor shit from Kotick.
I mean, didn’t Activision do this to the Infinity Ward heads?
Sounds like a Bungie move, honestly.
Serves em right for selling themselves to krafton without fucking watertight assurances on these things. It’s more scummy that Krafton are doing it but these guys should know better than this, or at least have hired attorneys to advise them on the matter before selling like they did.
The more informations surface the shittier it gets. I have strong KSP 2 vibes here.
Same, def not buying before full release if at all.
Man I was excited for this too but the more I hear the more I think the ship is sunk
I had never even heard of Krafton before this. Sadly, Subnautica 2 is now dead to me, because I intend to make sure I never hear of Krafton again after this.
Why did they sign this contract? Seems stupid to give the publisher the power to decide whether or not you get the bonus or not. They will choose not to give the bonus every time.
Greed. Then they got screwed, because of greed. This is just the video game cycle
That has been true of every earn out provision ever and people falling for it and getting fucked over is basically an art form
Exactly. They wanted this. Otherwise they wouldn’t have signed it.
Typical publisher behavior
how is this legal
Sounds like reasons to pick up Subnautica 1 and Unknown Worlds games.