marvelstudios
The conclusion to Ironheart was honestly so refreshing.
I love relatable characters—and honestly, if you lose your best friend twice, someone who was basically your heart, and you get the chance to bring her back a third time, who wouldn’t take that deal? Sure, we as the audience know Mephisto never brings anything good, but from Riri’s point of view—after everything she’s been through and all the stuff that’s tested her throughout the series—it makes total sense that she’d slip up. Story-wise, I like that they didn’t go the usual route of turning her full villain or keeping her squeaky-clean hero. It’s more nuanced—her judgment gets clouded by a desire that’s actually coming from a good place. And hopefully, that choice has some real consequences moving forward, whether in season 2 or maybe even a Champions spin-off.
Discussion
Agreed! People always complain that the MCU is too shiny and happy (a little less so after Infinity War) but then ignore that this series basically ended with the villains winning.
Hood escapes, his whole crew survived, Ezekiel is amped up and on the loose, and Mephisto got another easy to manipulate young person to take his deal.
Good day to be a bad guy.
She had what looked like the Hood on her armour in the end too.
Yes she did. So fun.
Came here for things like this, was able to rewind real quick and verify. So cool
Not to mention that Hood is now wrapped up with another of Riri’s friends (Zelma), further endangering her circle.
I hope we see a lot more of Zelma in the future.
Would love a magical school show with Zelma going to Kamar-Taj.
She was my favorite character in this show!
Weirdly, this is the plot point I want to follow the most.
Objectively seeing what Mephisto wants with Riri is more interesting. But witchy Darcy was lovable, and I could see the duo exploring magic. Him cause he wants power, her out of curiosity cause she never got to go to the academy.
She recently came out and said she hopes Strange Academy comes to fruition for all the people who can't let themselves support JK Rowling.
LOL Witchy Darcy.
I was thinking the same thing.
I like that she took his deal and that we seem to be moving into dark, magical territory like people were saying. I love me a Faustian bargain.
The thing is we didn't know all these references about a deal with a devil would apply to Riri also. They could have just been about Hood, so it was still a surprise
Although that screenshot...... that's blatant yep lol
Kind of a common trope in blocking and scene direction is that we read left to right, so stories tend to move left to right. The framing of her with the posters slightly behind her, the asymmetrical balance of the shot with the position she is in— open stance, looking towards the future, a future that is plastered with a figure whose face is obscured (hinting that we don’t really know their identity, although it could just signify hood), above the word “Faust”.
It really does all imply the coming of the devil, but is vague enough that it could just signify that the hooded figure gets his powers from an evil place, or perhaps a deal with the devil.
Faustian bargain incoming
Oh shit! That’s cool, nice catch! I’ll be honest, I wasn’t paying the closest attention to this show while I was watching it, especially in the beginning.
A Faustian bargain typically includes some pretty tragic results. I'm not sure we will actually get that, at this point.
That's my thing. Making a deal with the devil should carry some pretty serious weight and consequences to it. Unless Marvel is going to invest some serious time into this (multiple additional seasons plus a movie or two?), I'm not sure they are going to be able to adequately pay it off.
You're suggesting that the intention of the story at this point is that she got away with no consequences for her deal with Mephisto? She literally accepted the deal in the last seconds of the show. Of course the other show hasn't dropped yet.
It hasn’t been long enough for us to the see the further reaching implications of her deal. I believe there definitely will be some though just based on what was happening with Hood. If, for some reason, they decided to let her get away with making a deal with a devil, a resurrection, no less, which is forbidden in almost every bit of media ever created, then that would undermine the show and any threat Mephisto poses. I don’t think they’ll do that and they’ve foreshadowed it by showing the creeping vein-like curse marks on her arm and Hoods body. Faustian bargains are one of my all time favorites media tropes, the harsher the consequences the better I say.
I agree that it hasn't been long enough to know for sure. This is clearly speculation on my part, as is much of the discussion that takes place in here.
My thinking is that it took years to release this, even after being completed. On top of that, it seems like the general MCU audience weren't huge fans. How much time is marvel really investing in this storyline vs other potential ones? Maybe they invest enough to do this one justice, but I doubt it.
I watch with subtitles and when his crew went into the elevator, Hood’s patterns started spreading and the subtitle said something along the lines of “Squelching sounds” or something. I thought the crew was getting crushed in the elevator. 💀
That was the dark veins growing on his face. The same subtitle is seen for this exact thing in other episodes
I know. We realized right away. But at first we screamed. lol
I thought the exact same thing 😓 I let out the biggest gasp when I read it 😭
Same, until the "squelching sounds" happened again later.
Cept Stu
He ded
I guess, and John, but he deserved it more
You mean Rampage!?
Quick question, my husband and I are arguing over if the crew lived or not. I thought they lived, he thought they all got squished in the elevator.
You’ll be glad to know I think you’re right.
Yeah they do. I checked because I thought they got squelched and thought "no way disney just did that" and rewound.
Hood's "tattoos" grow cause he's getting more evil, that's the sound.
Yeah, there's no way Disney would crush people to pulp in a box....
Miss Minutes cackles wildly in the corner
Wouldn't mind seeing Clown return.
I love it when the bad guys win.
What do you think mephisto wants riri to build for him? He kept hinting at her building something iconic Like he had something for her??
Indeed, just realized. This is another MCU project where the bad guy wins! Those are rare!
Its also the opposite of my usual complaint with Marvel stuff. A movie/show ends, and the one bad guy or group we introduced... is defeated already. Oh, okay.
In this, we end and there's 3 new threads going on. There's a bunch of stuff out there in the world, happening. It makes the setting feel less empty.
Also Hood is rich, he got what he was trying to get
Totally! People complain that the MCU is predictable, but I love that they went somewhere ew.
I would even be down for Riri being a full on villain. Imagine this series as her complex and nuanced origin story.
In a vacuum I think the ending is super ballsy and fun. However, both with streaming in general and Marvel in particular the cliffhanger-y nature of the ending really puts me off because I have zero confidence in them following it up.
Yeah that's what annoyed me as well.
We're still waiting for them to follow up on several post credit scenes since phase 4. It's wild at how much they've teased but not done anything with.
Praying for devil-Riri to return in BP3, or for Mephisto to show up in the new Spider-Man. If they aren’t gonna use Mephisto in a movie called “Brand New Day”, then when?
There's always Young Avengers/Champions.
Is it really a cliffhanger, though? We know what happened. She made the deal. Things are probably gonna get real bad for her, but there’s no real cliff here, unless I’m forgetting something.
Yeah, some people are mistaking "tragic ending" for "cliffhanger ending".
I’m good with that but I’m not convinced. The way it was shot indicates the decision as ambiguous and I love it for that.
It started ambiguous, but then it ends with the corruption crawling up her arm. Best case scenario is that she didn't take it, but things are bound to get worse before they get better because she started to mess with forces she couldn't really understand.
Where’d you find the ambiguity? Seemed pretty straightforward to me that she took the deal.
Edit: this is a conversation in good faith, not an argument or anything. Just to be clear!
Agreed, it was clear, her best friend came back to life and Riri had the same scars spreading on her as the hood. She took the deal.
I just think it was all in the cinematography. It looked to me like Mephisto was showing her possibilities of the future if she took the deal and the scene never really played out in real time. The last shot of her at the table starting to outstretch her hand was the last thing I feel like was truth and not a vision of sorts. It leans to her taking the deal but was ambiguous enough that perhaps something else could happen
It wasn’t until I was watching the new rockstars Easter egg breakdown that I even noticed the same vein things popping up on her arm. I was fully convinced that it was left ambiguous too 🤣 I still am not 100% swayed that it’s not a dream sequence fake-out of some kind
I totally agree with you that it was ambiguous
Exactly. I like the idea of a dark ending, but I don't feel it was well executed and I don't think this was the right character to do it with.
Yeah this is the problem. I went into the series with a bad attitude but then she ate shit the entire time, learned no lessons, and made a literal deal with the devil. I thought it was super ballsy and sets her up for a killer redemption arc. But they’re clearly not gonna follow through.
The only part I didn’t get is both Parker and Riri never asked a follow up question after Mephisto said the catch was “nothing they would miss”. I mean come on, they’re both like “hm ok!”
Smash cut to Mephisto holding the shoestrings of the damned
I would be asking a million questions
From Riri's point of view she just watched a guy she knew turn into a literal demon, clawing at her faceplate, after making a deal with the same person, 5 seconds before she sat down.
Also, Riri has been shown to be very arrogant at times. It wouldn’t be out of character for her to think she can somehow get her friend back and also find a way to beat Mephisto.
Yeah it’s her arrogance. She thinks she can get out of anything
This is also pretty much the usual trope in any story featuring the good old "deal with the devil" plot.
Everyone thinks they're gonna be better than the previous guy and outsmart the devil.
Would like to see this + more in season 2. Show us why she made that choice.
What's the implications of making a deal with him? He said he has lots of deals, specifically CEOs and such, they obviously are not all turning into demons. Parker seemed to have a faster than usual fall from his deal, mostly for the plot aspect. Surely some are doing better than others, organized crime is obviously more risky.
I think it's one of those things you aren't supposed to think about too much.
Cause early on they told us "he doesn't possess, he influences" to set him apart from Dormammu. But Parker becoming a demon was much more than influencing.
When asked what he wants doesn't he say something like "nothing you would miss"? I figured there was a good backstory to what that means.
Probably means their soul.
I thought that was like the coolest part of his deals he makes them with people who "don't have souls" like billionaires and royals. Plus I think it's really telling that he didn't actively bring Nat back but made RiRi do it much like with Parker he isn't really giving them the power to do things just a nudge in the direction he wants them to go.
Yeah, that's exactly what it means.
I agree it's the soul.
Selling the soul to a devil is a common trope. I believe even the phrase "something you won't even miss" or "you won't notice it's gone" are very commonly said together with this trope.
Parker becoming a demon was from prolonged use of the Hood, tbf. Technically not Mephisto's doing, because Parker could have stopped any time he wanted. the fact he made it addictive and hurt to go without is semantics, at least thats how he'd present it
My theory is that Mephisto has a “reality distortion field” that kicks in once someone sits down
Like the moment u accept his offer for anything (in Parker and Riris case this was food) the deal is already done
Both scenes shows them slightly blanking out with a blank look on their face and I don’t think they actually have a choice but to accept whatever deal he throws out at that point
I think that would dispel the allure of the character. It would be like Kilgrave, or some other villain where opening your mouth means you lose. I thought his whole thing was more about manipulation and "you didn't read the fine print" rather than forcing people into things.
It also removes too much of the character's agency when falling prey to him.
But she didn't eat anything, did she? I could swear she was just offered food by Mephisto, but never actually ate any of it, because I remember thinking "don't take anything he offers you!" and I'm pretty sure she didn't. At least not food-wise.
She didn’t eat anything (at least from what I can remember) but she sat down with him.
I feel like that’s the turning point for any Mephisto deal. It’s not taking the deal that does u in - it’s being open to hearing what he has to say
Agreed, when the conversation with Mephisto started I pretty much knew she would do the typical thing of rejecting his offer and this would be the moment that she embraces her heroic side. I was very surprised to see her take the deal.. Riri is unique in that she’s not very likable right now. She’s self serving, rash, headstrong, and a bit cold. Oddly enough, I find myself vibing with that? Though I understand why some people won’t, I really appreciate her characterization so far. idk if it will ever pay off with more narrative but.. I think the finale stands out as one where the character actually feels like a real person and not a trope. I also really like that Parker lived and that Zeke didn’t immediately forgive her and made sure she knows that they’re not suddenly cool now. The show wasn’t perfect by any means, but it got alot right imo.
Oddly enough, I find myself vibing with that?
Me too! And I'll take it a step further:
In my head, a big part of her reason was the whole "iconic" thing, not just Natalie. I'm pretty much headcannoning Riri was using Natalie as an excuse to chase power cause I'm vibing with her flaws.
Makes you wonder. Was the glitch that caused Natalie to manifest in the first place ever determined how? It could have been been Mephisto laying the ground work for the deal later on.
I personally believe that Mephisto can never have a direct influence on his targets until they make a deal with him. He’s literally the Devil. It’s not that he can magically compel anyone he wants; he’s just really good at picking and choosing people when they’re vulnerable, and saying exactly what they want to hear.
I sort of believe the same, but I think he has exceptions. When Riri is warned "magic has a price", I think Mephisto can choose to tip the cosmic scales to go "I'll eat up Natalie as payment".
I might just be coping though. Cause I want Mephisto to have been part of Riri's path. I want her first connection to the group to not have been a coincidence. How did Parker find out Riri was responsible for John dying?
How did Parker find out Riri was responsible for John dying?
Mephisto showed him. He showed him the vision of John dying, then showed him Riri's Ironheart suit. We can see the shadow of it at the end of the vision/that episode.
That's what I think it was. And the reason I think that Natalie and the magic couldn't exist together. Zeke even said it earlier- the amount of energy necessary to do such a thing would turn the brain to mush.
I think another thing we’re gonna learn with Riri is that it’s not that she doesn’t understand that making the deal is generally bad, it’s that she so believes she can overcome it or figure it out that it won’t matter. She won’t end up like Parker. Not Riri Williams. We’ve seen this time and time again with different young avengers coming into the fold, but not on the scale yet that we’ve seen with Riri. We’re heading into some great character arcs and dynamics with a mentor character if they play their cards righ
It's so fun rewatching knowing that Riri made the deal. Like my first watch, I interpreted the montage of Parker & Riri to the song "Sinnerman" (GOD TIER song choice btw) as Parker being the "devil" character and Riri running to him. But then you realize after knowing the ending that BOTH characters are running towards the literal devil.
I wouldn’t make a deal with someone I don’t know to use magic to bring a dead friend back to life a third time.
There was an AI with her memories. Whether that counts as being brought back to live is debatable.
But even if you DO count that, this would only be the second time she’s been brought back.
Third time?
The AI-talie was number 2 and there's some evidence that she was made by Mephisto to influence Riri because theoretically, a brain scan alone shouldn't have made her in the first place.
Oohhhh thats an interesting theory. Puts a nice little bow on how the ai turned into Natalie. I like it.
So what's the first one then?
I think we're interpreting the phrase "back to life x time" differently. In rereading it, I guess it can mean 3 resurrections after living or having 3 total lives.
- first time: normal alive
- second time: AI
- third time: "real" Natalie
"Dead friend back to life a third time"
Oh i wanna hear this story.
She wasn't trying to bring real natalie back tbf, she wanted to get the AI back. Because she made it once so should be able to do it again
Yea... Hard to get on board that someone is literally in the top 3 smartest people on the planet and makes an obviously beyond shady deal with one of the most sinister people to ever exist. I don't know a whole lot about Riri, but anything I read saying she's genius just doesn't jive at all with the show I just watched.
Just because someone is a engineering genius doesn't mean they're a genius at everything.
I took it as she was just an intelligent person... Not just engineering smart.
She's not really emotionally or socially intelligent. She barely takes care of herself, too. She's got flaws to offset how ridiculously engineering smart she is.
She wanted the A.I. back.
If she wanted Natalie alive again, there's no doubt she would have wanted her step father back as well. Go back to the way it was/bring them back/put me back in that situation so I can save them etc.
This is a misunderstanding with the audience interpretation of what she asked for.
If only there was a term for agreements with evil otherworldly spirits that result in unintended consequences
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. She asked for the AI and got the real thing, everyone is stating she brought her friend back in the deal.
That wasn't her intention.
I'm thinking...and I'm just spitballing...but what about Monk EEeEeEzz(like a scream) Pa?(Cause I miss my step dad)
yesss! just because she is smart, doesn’t mean she is smart enough to understand how bad dealing with devils can get!
It’s just funny to me that she’s lost Natalie twice and now she’s made a deal with the devil to lose her again one more time. 🤦♂️
If there ends up being a season two, I can guarantee that her friend will not be alive at the end of it. There's no way she can come back from the dead and stay without repercussions.
If the show wasn't called ironheart, I would have thought this is a vallian origin arc. RiRi had zero character growth. Just when we thought she grew a bit, she just falls back into zero over and over again.
She also very narcissistic to the point that she drags everyone down to her shit. That lil arc when she finally cracks and let people helped her was later just washed away as she wheezzz off showing her shit...
I'm honestly a bit torn about the end and i lean towards not liking it, especially since not only has she been warned repeatedly by Zelma and her mother, she literally only minutes before her deal and during the deal itself that it's a really shitty idea to make deals with Mephisto and that he can't be trusted.
Plus, i thought it kinda went against her development shown in the previous two episodes.
To be clear - i'm not saying it came out of nowhere or that it doesn't make any sense within what we've seen over the course of the series. I'm just not sure this was the best decision for them to go with.
Plus, i'm afraid this will be yet another cliffhanger that's never going to get resolved.
I didn't like it personally. Felt like all her growth was thrown out the window. She's been fucking up since ep1 and continued to do so until the very end, absolutely no lessons learned. Went right from seeing the effects of it on the Hood to signing her soul away(effectively). Zeke was 100% right about her when he was talking to her in prison. Her grief is genuinely no excuse
I have to say this feels like the end of Luke Cage s2 but actually has a chance for a good ending
I like how she's got some similarities with Doom, with the Tech and Magic combined. Especially with her ties to Latveria in the comics. I also like how they kinda made her into somewhat of an anti-hero.
Holy ChatGPT batman.
Me at the ending
Did she take the deal? It looked pretty ambiguous to me.
This is what I’m saying; we saw flashes to a future that seems like a “what could be”, and we never see her actually shake his hand. She just reached towards it
She kinda comes off as a covert narcissist to me, so I hope they go full Iron Lad with her and become a malignant narcissist at some point lol. This would mirror Loki's (or Tony's) journey(s) from a self-described narcissist to someone who's willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good with her as someone who thinks she's working toward the greater good, but can't ever admit her own shortcomings and selfishness.
I'm glad she did what I wouldn't have done. I don't want perfect characters who always do the right thing, I want flawed characters who make emotional decisions and watch them deal with the fallout
I loathed it and found her exceptionally selfish and stupid with no growth or character arc. Not what I want from a good story.
Plus she was so arrogant and narcissistic at times.
Hated it
Was it? Riri had no arch, and by the end she's in a way worse place than she was in the beginning (as a character too, she had no personal growth). It left so many things opened and I don't think they will all ever be concluded. If it wasn't for Mefisto, this would be more forgettable than Echo.
She had the character arc of a protagonist in a Greek/Shakespearean tragedy. Marvel Studios hasn’t really done stories like this yet but these type of things happen plenty of times in comics.
Nah I ain't making a deal with the devil to bring my dead friend back. Also as usual in comics nobody ever considers that if they indeed have souls and what not that presumably there are afterlife's which means for all you know you are snatching them back out from paradise. Of course on the same note it really shouldn't even be an option in most cases assuming they go to some sort of deity related afterlife so you would have to cross or maneuver around a deity to do it anyway.
Hi, personally I lost my lifelong best friend a few years ago. We knew eachother for three decades. He'd be deeply ashamed with me to see me take some kind of life altering deal with the devil instead of living the best life I can, in honor of his memory. Enjoy things he would have enjoyed. Appreciate the world from his perspective now and then, too. None of the anguish of his loss would justify deliberate choices of crime, of stealing, of manipulating, of lying, and of getting other people killed as Riri does. This isn't about being a perfect hero, there are plenty of problematic heroes, antiheroes, and villains turned hero. She simply has no heart.
To address your 'story" note: She did not simply slip up. She made nonstop mistakes from start to finish, culminating in the worst mistake of all. The nuances you claim the show conveyed are simply an interpretation you've chosen, by deliberately ignoring other details that conflict with this conclusion.
Her desire was not coming from a good place. It was about her selfish desire for the AI to be back, she never asked for her friend to come back to life. She didn't even care to ask for that, because Ironheart is heartless.
In the context of the story though, you got your friend back, for a solid week or two... and then he was ripped away from you again, a few hours before the deal is offered
Not at all what happened in the series, but that's a cool fanfic. As far as we know, it was an AI scan of her OWN BRAIN and her recollection/observations of Natalie. It was what Riri's subconscious thought Natalie was, with zero original natalie inside it. It was a false echo of natalie simply as Riri understood her... from five years ago... when she was 15.
She did not "get her friend back" and then lose her again. Nor did she ask for her friend back after losing this AI (through a contrived "I never backed up my SENTIENT AI, the greatest scientific achievement since ultron"), only the AI self-brain copy that LOOKED like Natalie. There was no emotional depth to any of it.
Obviously a lot of potential for it -- had it been natalie's soul in the AI, or she remembered after the fact. Had they put any effort into this conceptually, the viewer might feel some kind of meaningful connection.
We know from the final shot of the series, she had no memory - of her own death, of existing as AI Natalie.
A fake Ehren AI wouldn't please me any more than desecrating his ashes by bringing him back to life against his will. Both instances are immoral and wrong. Wanting to see someone who died to the point you make a deal with satan ... you've lost the plot. She again, didn't even ask satan for her friend back -- only the AI version based on her own brain.
Ironheart is a heartless hero, as I said in my own review:
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/1lsd63y/ironheart_is_a_heartless_hero/
It doesn't matter that we rationally know what Natalie is. She felt like her best friend and losing her again feels like the same traumatic accident.
It's an emotional response to something which the brain hasn't evolved to process.
Hell the same thing is already happening in the real world with people becoming attached to various chatbots as if they're real persons.
It's genuinely impressive to me that people can watch 6h of a show and somehow miss every single thing its saying/doing
The show explicitly shows Riri initially be uncomfortable with the AI and seeing it as not "real". And then coming to care about and emotionally depend on it as the show progresses. Because she hadn't processed the first loss.
after losing this AI (through a contrived "I never backed up my SENTIENT AI, the greatest scientific achievement since ultron")
For how much people moan about it being unrealistic that Riri can make half the tech she does, suddenly they expect her to be able to back-up/re-make, and i quote, "the greatest scientific achievement since ultron". Almost like Riri made it by accident and doesn't know how to wrangle it.
Wanting to see someone who died to the point you make a deal with satan ... you've lost the plot.
At no point does the show actually say she knows she's dealing with Satan. She's barely discovered that magic is real and the last wizard she dealt with was a friend.
She again, didn't even ask satan for her friend back -- only the AI version based on her own brain.
Technically she didn't ask for anything. He was putting the works on her and put that idea in her head.
It feels like people go into the show looking for the most cynical/negative read on anything and everything they can find... and then are shocked that they had a negative time with it. Sure, I could read the events of the story in a way that makes Riri seem like an awful villain. Or I could apply benefit of the doubt and treat her like a flawed human not expect a sheltered kid genius with unresolved trauma to act perfectly rationally 24/7 in a weird ass situation
edit: I love their "check out my review" link, leading to a post where a bunch of people clown on them for exactly the same shallow read that i was clowning on
I watched the show start to finish twice, before writing up my critique which you conveniently gloss past. My comment is simply hitting on a few key points from the longer writeup. Its very clear you didn't read that in full, neither did anyone but one commenter - who you'll note I engaged with earnestly and thoughtfully. Reddit is not for earnest or thoughtful people, obviously!
You're engaging with a strawman here. I was responding to this person claiming Riri has heart because she wanted her friend back. She explicitly states, repeatedly clarifying to Mephisto, that she wants the AI version of Natalie back. She does not ask for Natalie back. The person's point is invalid.
Moan about its unrealistic? I felt it was realistic that a genius had so many neat gadgets. I found it unrealistic that she has no wherewithall to consider using it to make money. Braindead genius. As far as the comment on backing up the AI... it is simple procedure for anyone developing any tech or software to simply create a copy. The AI is on a data storage device. She attempts to back it up AS IT DISAPPEARS "BECAUSE MAGIC". This shows she's clearly capable of that and just... never bothered to make a copy? You're grasping at nothing in this response pal.
Regarding the satan comment... She knows from Zelma that the cloak, given to the hood by this entity, is a creature from the darkest realm they know of. Zelma's mom shoves them out of the shop when she realizes this. Riri didn't have to know Mephisto is effectively satan to know it was a bad actor offering her a deal. She takes it knowingly... for an AI copy to come back. That's the character's stated intention, as I've underscored repeatedly and every response has dodged
I went into the show rooting for Riri, not for a cynical takeaway. I cover this in that post you say I was clowned on, the one you didn't read. Hopefully you read this one.
Anyone with a brain and heart would have asked for the real thing. Her actual friend, not the idolized version of her she created out of her own mind into that AI.. Maybe she could have asked about her step father as well. But nay, let them rot, bring the AI, not like Riri could just re-scan her brain and bring the AI back again on her own
I liked this show more than I thought I would, the ending was refreshing.
Ironheart is pretty good when you don’t have a bitch in your ear telling you it’s bad
I forgot but did zelma didnt know if the hood is riri's enemy?
She's more like Tony Stark than she'd like to think.
Why wouldn’t one take that deal?
Well, idk, maybe because you just got taught that magic comes with a price and it killed your AI friend permanently, you just saw someone get corrupted (turned into a demon) that made the deal before, you are making a deal with a magical being that obviously doesn’t have the best intentions, you just had panic attacks because everything was going to shit, you couldn’t sleep due to the anxiety of everything going to shit.
I like the ending for other reasons. But logically and emotionally it didn’t make any sense for an intelligent person to make that deal at the point she made the deal.
Disgusting. She sold her soul to the devil.
cant wait to hear all the people cry "bad writing" because they cant understand nuance
Shes already in the path to being a villain so it would be weird if she didnt take the deal with the devil
Peter Parker was on the path to becoming a pro wrestler.
In the future when a second series or movie is out it’s going to be perfect
Yeah I honestly strongly disliked the show 2 episodes in but things finally became compelling and interesting toward the end. The pacing of the show could have used some work though. I also was confused about some of the plot points and how they came to be because it seemed like they were never explained fully. Thinking about the store Riri and her mom go to and the revelations there.
What I’m confused about is Parker going to Zelma - did he know she helped Riri?
He has no idea. He was just asking around for magic & got pointed to the one shop in Chicago that deals in actual magic.
she was a very human character which was very nice to see with how bad marvel has been handling its female character lately. (she hulk)
i definitely agree i like the nuance but i despise it being a cliffhanger ending. they shouldn’t do that with these shows period.
I mean do get it but she did see what happened to Parker. Taking the deal is understandable to an extent but once again she saw what happened with Parker.
TBH I felt the show had a weird pace and honestly didn't pull me in. I don't blame people for enjoying it, but it didn't hit with me. It's been a while since D+ show has, probably the last ones were She Hulk and X-Men 97.
I actually liked this show for the reasons you mention. Was it fantastic? No, but it was enjoyable enough and I LOVE Sacha Baron Cohen as Mephisto. Fantastic casting for a very interesting character.
Did she actually make the deal though? We didn’t see her shake his hand.
The level of stupidity involved in doing this cannot be resolved by a plot. It has to be a dream sequence. Thats the bet.
So what would happen in S2 to bring her around and have her hero moment.
Her best friend is 100% on borrowed time and might be evil and out killing.
Riri will be killing innocent people.
What step will be the end game making her change? How big will the hole she digs get?
From the way she is portrayed, her bestie will sacrifice herself to save Riri and it won't be a sudden realisation.
She isn't in control of the story and has no agency, she keeps on doing the wrong thing or the stupid thing, even signing a deal with the devil.
I can't see a good way to turn this ship around without having a season where she gets worse and worse and another season to make her repent and start the heroes journey.
I’m not thoroughly informed on how Mephisto works, my only real experience with him being his deal with Spider-Man. My main question here was what was Riri’s part of the deal? Was she just his partner and has to listen to him now or is there something else more specific?
We saw with Parker that Mephisto essentially slowly drains your life by growing scales / veins all over you.
Honestly, I don’t get the hate for Riri. For me, she’s totally understandable. She’s only 20, super smart, but grew up having to survive, so the impatience and attitude make sense. She’s still learning while carrying a huge responsibility, and it feels real.
>!I am conflicted about this serie. Many mixed messages here.
So, Riri is a kid prodigy. She can make whatever she wants, if she has the resources to do it. She will lie, cheat, manipulate and steal to accomplish her goal: to make an iron suit. She will explain that her drive is because she believes she can do it. Later, it's revealed it's because she feels guilty for not doing anything to save her stepfather and sister. Inadvertenly, she creates an AI in the likeness of her dead sister.
Her grief-driven goal gets herself entangled with some shady people who will steal and kill for their own personal gain. She spirals out of control and her actions will lead to endangering the very loved ones she wanted to protect in the first place. She comes clean and together they help her defeat the villain. But the real villain seduces her into resurrecting her sister in exchange for a pact.
It certainly makes her a complex character. Is she a hero or a villain? Neither and both. But what I'm missing is progression. Does she learn her lesson? No, she still acts based on in-the-moment emotions of unresolved grief. There's no arc, it's a circle. It's unclear why we should root for Riri, because she did terrible things with no accountability and no growth.
I also found the messaging terrible: she lost two loved ones that day, but apparently she only really cared about one. With flashbacks they show how good of a father-figure her stepdad was, but not good enough to ask Mephisto to bring him back to.!<
Edit: spoilers don't work for some reason.
Spoiler tags: Don't put spaces between the tag & the first/last word you're hiding. It should end with "last word!<" and start with ">!first word".
She did learn a lesson, though. The problem is that she needed to learn two lessons & she only learned one, specifically the one that made her more vulnerable to manipulation.
Also:
--Natalie was not her sister.
--Riri didn't sign up for killing; the instant she saw Parker first shoot a gun, she started looking for a way to undermine him.
--She was only obsessed with bringing Natalie back because of the AI.
Nope, still not working.
-I really thought she was her sister or stepsister, but maybe that's some Mandela effect on my part. - Throughout the serie, she seemed more concerned with getting caught than the damage she has done. She did allow Zeke to get jailed and didn't come clean to the authorities.
Nah. Don’t get me wrong, the series as a whole was great, I genuinely enjoyed watching it.
Riri Williams on the other hand I found to be a terrible terrible character. She was constantly so annoying throughout the whole series, manipulating and lying to everyone (including her closest ones) just to get what she wanted… For example, Zeke was such a nice guy and she literally turned him into a villain, I was able to sympathize 1000 times more with him than her.
Also absolute zero common sense from her, you’re telling me she realized pretty early on she’s facing against magic and she came to the conclusion to fight magic with magic in the last episode? F that.
She definitely shares Tony's self destructive streak
chat gpt ahh reddit post
I mean it was one big set up for a plot poiint we will never see expanded on.
Nothing refreshing about that.
She definitely thought she could outsmart or otherwise escape the consequences of her deal with Mephisto, or maybe just didn't care because she just wanted to protect her family who is still alive and get her lost friend back in the meantime. I was shocked though that she absolutely did not learn the lesson that the entire series had been trying to show her, that was the big twist. Tony would be proud.
She is very intelligent with tech obviously, but her social and emotional skills are horrendous
Well, she's 19 years old and in the depths of grief and despair. She needs therapy before she can even begin to unpack this.
Yeah, that's why the ending disappointed me. There appeared to be some character growth, and then there wasn't. And as a commenter above said, she'd just seen what happened to Parker and knew better.
I don't HATE the ending. I mean, Riri wasn't exactly presented as a hero; and I got the idea Mephisto might have had a hypnotic effect on people (e.g., stirring the spoon). And I might even end up liking the choice to have her make the deal if they follow it up with something interesting, like if Mephisto appears in a movie or another show and the people he's manipulated get involved in something. But I just felt misled regarding the character growth that appeared to have happened.
The way I interpret the ending is that she did know better, but she has a really high opinion of her own intelligence, exacerbated the impetuousness of her youth. She believes she can outsmart Mephisto, but that is a problem for another day. Right now she has her best friend back, and she hasn’t had a win in a long time so she’s gonna enjoy today. She hasn’t been broken like Tony did, and the series is setting up to do just that. When it finally happens, it’s going to be spectacular. Tony had to answer to Nick Fury and SHIELD. Riri would have to face the Sorcerer Supreme.
I didn't even take it as "she thinks she can outsmart him"
She spends the whole show refusing to open up and trust people, and at the end of ep 5 finally cracks and lets people in. She's just defeated hood, she's still kind of emotionally vulnerable, and this guy comes along who is literally the manipulator, and has a supernatural ability to tempt people beyond just what he's saying to them.
I think she got suckered in. And she's willing to let Mephisto hurt her, to protect her family, not realising that he'll find a way to get around his seeming promise
Also she made sure that only her would pay the prize so I read it as her willingness to sacrifice herself for Natalie
That was pretty explicit, I think.
That's a good point. I do hope this is something they follow up on and we get to see what happens.
I feel like this choice doesn't contradict Riri's character development. Her arc in the show is to open up about her fears and rely on other people to help her do what she wants to do, because she's taken it onto herself to be a lone protector after failing to protect the people that mattered most to her, and that's bad for her. That's why the question of why she built the suit keeps reappearing as a motif: her finally answering that question is the culmination of that character growth.
No amount of character growth is going to remove the greatest flaw that her entire character revolves around, though: hubris. Riri genuinely thinks that her engineering genius makes her untouchable like it did for Tony Stark, and she has not gone through the saga of films it took for Stark to unlearn that, so that core flaw is still firmly in place. If anything, making the deal with Mephisto is the logical extreme of her character arc in the show, since learning to rely on others to achieve what she can't alone is what makes her vulnerable to Mephisto's influence. I don't think the Riri we met in Wakanda Forever or at the start of the show would have made the deal.
It’s also a cool tony parallel. He kept doubling down along the way and was ultimately correct in that they needed to be stronger, but he went about it poorly. A vision from a witch didn’t teach him to stop, it made him go harder and keep tinkering, which helped him save the universe.
Riri on her smaller level just keeps going deeper, is given a vision by magic, and bets on herself to beat Mephisto. Let’s see if it matters like Tony
I mean it also nearly ended the world.
Tony learnt by making mistakes. In the long run that worked out
I disagree. I don't think Mephisto represents "relying on others". I think he represents the same thing the gang represented. Riri wanting access to resources to fuel her genius, and looking the other way at the questionable aspect of the partnership.
Going to Mephisto is repeating the same mistake as when joining the gang. It's not about relying on others, but taking shortcuts feeling she is justified due to her potential. Instead of talking to others about "what do we do about Natalie", she made a deal with the devil. She fixed it by herself.
I'm curious what u/Laleh_the_Ghost thinks about this take.
I don't think Mephisto represents relying on others, since that's a positive trait for a character to have, he's a dark mirror of that trait, being too willing to align yourself with people who don't have your best interests at heart just because it benefits you. That's why it's the logical extreme, because it takes advantage of Riri's lesson she learned and uses it against her.
Yeah, this is true. And unlike Tony, she's still basically a kid who was made to grow up too fast (graduating before her peers, losing two fathers and a best friend, being placed in a combat situation at a young age), and her emotional maturity hasn't caught up.
Hubris to the point of covert narcissism. Literally any critiques she receives she blows off and deludes herself into thinking she isn't a criminal lol. It's all about her image, she can't have people thinking she's "bad" - even the guy whose life she literally ruins, she still expects him to get over it.
I said this in another thread, but the reason I think the ending works is because it does show some level of character development from Riri but it also shows Mephisto's capabilities when it comes to deal making.
Riri refuses the deal. He makes the offer and she declines. But she doesn't get up from the table. That's what guaranteed Mephisto was going to be able to talk her into it. The whole point is that Riri refuses and then Mephisto takes a couple more shots. He sees a crack in her facade, so he lets her think for a few more moments. Think of her lost friend. He says some more about the deal, then offers the handshake. That's wheb Riri accepts the deal.
And if Riri didn't accept the deal there, Mephisto would always be waiting with the deal on the table. Letting her grief consume her, as it had done before. Sooner or later, Riri was accepting that deal, and Mephisto knew it. Because that's the whole thing about deals with the devil. You might be able to refuse the first time, maybe even the second. But the third? Fourth? How long can you hold out before he gets his hands wrapped around your soul?
That's why I like the ending. Because Mephisto is a stand in for the classic "deal with the devil" trope, but the trope usually leaves the hero refusing and escaping the devil's clutches. Not this time. Not yet.
EXACTLY THIS. She resisted joining the merry band of criminals at first, but then relented. She resisted having an A.I. in the shape of her dead friend, but she relented. She resisted a deal with the devil, but relented. It makes way more sense for the character than her saying “fuck you, devil” and leaving the table. We’ve seen that sort of show before. I’m glad they circumvented our expectations
I think there is a plot where she does finally learn her lesson and walks away from the offer, but that's not what this story was about, and I think it's all the better for it. We know she'll probably walk away and be redeemed eventually, they just haven't told that story yet.
Yeah it's like the whole show was watching her make one poor choice after another but then, with the help of her friends and family, she was ultimately able to make yet another poor choice, the end.
All the bad things that happen in the show are just because of her poor decisions — not due to some inevitable fact or destiny. All the problems she is facing, all the danger her family is in, are simply the result of her choosing the most messed-up option every time.
like if she just take a propper normal obvious decision. nothing would happen, she just don't thing beyond doing the fking metal suit
Are you the guy from Honest Trailers?
Exactly, people don’t seem to get that. Riri isn’t a hero. The show presents her consistently as not being a hero. She has a ton of growing up to do and needs to be humbled, if she took the deal she hasn’t been humbled enough yet. Her character can go some interesting places Liz
The interesting thing is she did have character growth in regards to her father’s death but not Natalie’s death; holo-Natalie kept her from that goal, or at least reset the progress
I agree with you, both in the criticism and the openness for future projects involving Riri (and Mephisto). In Ironheart, I felt like she was portrayed more like an anti-hero, which I don't mind at all. In fact, I'd love to see, let's say, a Young Avengers movie in which she'd be the villain. As an agent of Mephisto (because of the deal), she could be tasked to trick the other Young Avengers into giving up their souls as well. To me, that would be even more refreshing than what we've got here. What do you say?
Tony would definitely be proud. He invited a terrorist to his house, tried to beat an assassin’s ass (and America’s ass), and created evil AI because he thought being the unilateral source of global security was his right, resulting in the destruction of a city (in a country his weapons had already ruined). He gets it.
Nah that shit was such a terrible ending. Black people don't even fuck with that voodoo shit. Whole neighbourhood gonna see Natalie alive and probably stay the fuck away, they all know she's dead. Nobody will be happy bout that especially her brother. So unfortunate how that ruined the whole show for me
Sort of agree is was a bizarre turn... I expected her to make a deal with mehpisto to get the Natalie AI back not the actual Natalie raised from the dead ig.
Thats what she thought too, Methisto tricked her.
I liked that it didn't end happily and took a chance in that direction, but I didn't like the execution.
Riri yelled at Hood "this isn't you, you are being possessed" a few minutes ago. She knows Mephisto isn't doesn't just "influence" like the witches were saying. A person under him can literally start getting demonic, it's not a matter of resisting his persuasions.
What worries me is that Tony had 15 years of his own trilogy, 4 Avengers movies, and several other movie drop-ins to redeem himself...Riri won't. IF WE'RE LUCKY, the Young Avengers will team up to take down Mephisto and save Riri, but nothing's promised
I was disappointed with the ending..you said it perfectly, the entire season was a teaching on consequences. she literally saw what the hood became from his deal ... It's the absolute selfishness that kills me