Also relevant Phil Jackson quote:
“Kobe's defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league's all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn't played sound, fundamental defense.”
Zach Lowe in 2013:
“If Bryant makes first or second-team All-Defense again this season, I’m officially ignoring this honor indefinitely when it comes to assessing a player’s status and career accomplishments. There will be no more “Player X has seven first-team All-Defense appearances” in this space as a way of justifying a man’s place in the NBA hierarchy. Bryant isn’t the first player coasting to undeserved All-Defense appearances based on reputation, but if he makes it again this season, it will be his most egregious appearance ever, and one of the most egregious in league history. It’s probably already time to start ignoring these honors, since Carlos Boozer received what I hope was an accidental vote last season, but Bryant’s selection would make it official.”
His entire Grantland article on this topic is pretty good
"What he say fuck me for?" - Carlos Boozer
For playing bad defense
I watched pretty much every Bulls game during Carlos Boozer's tenure and I couldn't tell you how many times I heard him yell some variation of "AH SHIT GET EM JO" because his man basically just walked around him towards the hoop.
Love Boozer but this comment brings back so many memories of his bad defense lmao
dude had cinderblocks for feet
His off-hand finishing at the basket was so good tho, that’s what I prefer to remember.
“AND ONE!!!!” Every single time lmao
True, had that going for him. I agree, better for the mental to remember the good parts
and getting that one random vote lol
well Kobe didnt end up making either 1st or 2nd team in 2013 to be fair lol
That year it would have been even more ridiculous, Kobe had already spent years taking on most of the offensive burden but with Nash and Howard both hobbled Kobe was basically playing as the James Harden combo guard for like 45 minutes a game while the defensive rating was through the floor
Grantland was the single greatest collective of writing talent in modern history.
For sports writing absolutely
Otherwise its that one night at Mary Shelleys house that convinced her to write Frankenstein
The Brontë house deserves a shout out as well.
I miss it.
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or you know, he's saying Kobe's defensive ceiling was high but he didn't play sound defense by Phil's standards
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Phil was referring to a single season here dude
Why has Kobe’s all defensive selection become some discussion recently, I feel like I’ve seen 5 posts about them recently and there hasn’t been anything recent to cause it
Remember that week last off season where Jordan's steal numbers were a hot topic? Off season convos are actually kind of fun if you don't take them super seriously.
At least it’s different from the usual GOAT debate arguments, so for me it’s a nice change of pace.
Yeah but that also got brought up by the healing heads especially the what 88 dpoy. Home team cooked his official stats lol.
his all defensive selections were always a hot topic and I’m saying this as a laker fan
Everyone always had a problem with it even when he was playing
Until like 2007. After that though it was just reputation. They gave him all nba over Ron Arrest one year. Like Artest wasn't on his team guarding other team's best player
2009-2012 all NBA defense is voters phoning it in. Bron's first selection was bullshit too. He wasn't locking anybody. They just liked his chase down blocks. Miami is when Bron went crazy on defense
How did Kobe take a defensive team from Artest? Artest was a forward and wasn’t getting selected as a guard
It was Bron! Bron stole it from Ron!
He’s saying if there was anyone on that team that deserved it it was Ron. Voters do have some arbitrary number of candidates from a team they like to select for all nba and all star votes. See the “they don’t deserve two all stars/all nba players” arguments every year.
When Kobe and Metta were playing, the All-Defensive Teams were required to have 2 guards, 2 forwards, and a center.
Kobe was a guard, and Metta was a forward. In other words, Kobe couldn’t have taken a spot from Metta because they weren’t competing for a spot.
I’m not sure what year OOP was referring to, but it seemed like it was when Metta was on the Lakers. Here are the forwards that beat out Metta those years:
2009-10: 1st Team LeBron, Gerald Wallace, 2nd Team Josh Smith, Anderson Varejao
2010-11: 1st Team LeBron, Garnett, 2nd Team Iggy, Joakim
2011-12: 1st Team LeBron, Ibaka, 2nd Team Luol Deng, Garnett
2012-13: 1st Team LeBron, Ibaka, 2nd Team Paul George, Duncan
Also, for what it’s worth, there were multiple players from the same team across all positions all those years.
Kobe didn’t prevent Metta from making an All-Defensive Teams when they were teammates the voters were just dumb. Partially evidenced by the fact that Kobe was still an All-Defensive selection into 2012.
Yeah every time questions about Kobe's defensive awards come up, it's immediately shut down when you ask them to list which years and which guards should be selected over him
Plus after 2011 Metta's defense fell off quite heavily on the perimeter as he got older and lead footed.
Realistically only 2 of those seasons was he snubbed.
It was from '02-03 where Kobes selections became something we argued back on the realgm forums, I remember talking about it by '04 and '06 because those years where ridiculous selections, he wasn't guarding shit back then.
Bro, what do you mean? First possession of every nationally televised game he was a fucking demon.
I was with you until you said the LeBron one. You’re misremembering brons first MVP and subsequently his first defensive team. Bron was an elite defender with elite athleticism. His rim protection was underrated and his weak side rim protection was immaculate. Plus he was an amazing perimeter defender. Not his peak smartest but still smart nonetheless.
Defense isn’t just locking down on ball 1:1, being a great off ball, switch, help and team defender is a big part too
Edit: referring to LeBron here
That Kobe had to be moved off from defending Ray Allen in the finals because he dies on screens?
I was referring to LeBron
Which further proves Kobe didnt deserve 60% of his defensive selections
A kindred spirit LBJs defense in first-stint Cleveland is wildly overrated!
Eye test and metrics would heavily disagree, he was a monster on D even back then
You mean Mo will, his stepdad, mid 30s Ilgauskas, and split duties between Varejao and mid 30s Ben Wallace wasn't the reason the 2009 Cavs were a top-3 defense in the league?
Quite the opposite, lebron defense always is better than what mainstream media thinks it is
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Which is exactly what Teague is saying? Why are people so bad at nuance
Would have helped if Teague specified what years. And I can see that argument. He was never the same after the acl injury.
It was a common discussion during his playing days but there are a lot of new fans who are discovering these talking points.
It's only become a mainstream take during the analytics era. This was the time when coaches voted for all-defense. After the switch to broadcaster and writers in 2014, I think it was maybe Joerger who said that it's good because none of the coaches really put any effort into thinking through their votes, as it's not really their job.
No wonder LeBron stopped getting them lol he still got DPOY votes but never made a another All Defensive team after that time smh I think he's been worthy of it too
Makes me proud to see, young Kobe hating nephews taking talking points from uncs lol.
Kobe’s entire career and legacy has been called into question the last 6 weeks lol
Are we even sure Kobe Bryant existed?!?!
Tbh it’s always called into question nonstop
I think just about anything Kobe’s ever done gets challenged lol.
His last few all defense teams were reputation. Those teams were a joke half the time and the same pool of people didn't even vote for the DPOY award back then, which is how Marc Gasol won DPOY but was All Defense 2nd Team
Like go back and watch 2010 and 2011 and tell me with a straight face that Kobe deserved those, he was taking off so many possessions on defense
Yeah in the Mavs series where they swept the Lakers a big part of the offensive sets were to attack Kobe. They practically abused him that series.
Kobe fans struggle to admit he got those nods over Prime Tony Allen and Iggy. Those last three awards are about as valid as Derek Jeter's gold gloves.
Kobe is one of those guys that people have such strong opinions on that he'll always be talked about. Both underrated and overrated if that makes sense
It’s just pure hate at this point for some reason.
people disrespect kobe like he wasn't magical
Because he was getting them over certain players that were objectively better than him, even by his own admission.
because tmac. tmac said he could've done what Kobe did, then everybody said he didn't play defense like kobe & has 0 all defensive teams. the podcasters made it a topic
Kobe’s always on ppl’s minds, they love repeating and posting the same old shit to karma farm and rage bait cause it is Kobe.
The same people who voted Kobe onto all those defensive teams left Marc Gasol off the 1st team when he won DPOY
But depending on the narrative being pushed, the voters (coaches at the time) were right and their defensive team selections were accurate. So Gasol didn’t deserve DPOY.
Until you bring up Kobe again , then those voters don’t know what they’re talking about
Marc Gasol wasn't just left off the first team, there were 2 centers Noah and Chandler on the 1st team and Larry Sanders had more votes than him too so he was really the 4th highest voted center
Regardless of if Gasol or Lebron should have won DPOY. The biggest mistake was definitely leaving him off the D 1. team
But I think it helps prove a point that all these awards are decided by some absolute idiots. So people should take these awards into account when discussing who is the best. No matter the awards’ results.
Gasol was top3 that season in a lot of defensive categories 1 being win shares and team defense as well as +/- that season it’s known that the voters messed up leaving him off the 1st team more than he didn’t deserve the DPOY that’s literally insane talk he defended
Felt like league used to reward superstars with All Def teams back in the day. Or there just wasn’t significant defensive specialists on the level we have now. Obviously there was guys like Raja, Bowen, Lindsey, Tony Allen guys. But feels like offense is so elite now that almost all defensive guys aren’t the main superstars
I think they were plenty of defensive specialists. Shawn Marion for example never got on an all defensive team but was the best perimeter defender on 2011 Mavs and the Nash Suns.
shawn marion plays forward & had to compete with many other forwards for the award
he definitely didn't deserve the last few but it is what it is
My only issue is why is he the only one that ever gets this criticism?
So many superstars get reputation rewards. But it seems like Kobe’s are the only ones to ever get discussed.
Exactly the same convo the have in baseball with Jeters gold Gloves. Jeter was a massively overrated defender but since he made a few cool jump throws and was the captain he got more than he ever should have
Kobe was kind of the same. A few cool game sealing steals and he got the credit of being a Ron arrest.
Massively overrated is understating it.
Jeter was perhaps the worst defensive shortstop in modern baseball full stop. Jeter should have been a second baseman.
Oh I totally agree. He was a career negative defender and he won it 5 times at a premium position lol.
Also Khalil Greene in 2007 was one of the best defenders I’ve seen. He lost the gold glove to Jimmy Rollins but J Roll won with a mediocre fielding percentage but was an MVP. Baseball especially back then just out the best offensive guys and gave them gold gloves.
Jeter is very similar to Kobe in a way.
Jeter made normal plays look like “tough” plays because he wasn’t quick enough or had a strong enough arm to make them look routine.
Kobe made “tough” shots where someone like LeBron would make them look routine.
Two way players who are God teir on offense have their defense so fucking overrated lmao, late stage lebron kobe jordan all weren't as good as defensive specialists who locked people up for their careers
Not true for Jordan. Hell he was still busting his ass on defense while playing for the wizards.
People just did that in the MVP debate this year, acting as if Shais defense was so special it was the main reason he won it over jokic, when he wasn’t even a top 5 defender on his own team. But when we look back at it, all we’ll remember are the talking points about Shai being the best two way player in the world (like giannis doesn’t exist).
Jordan kind of was though. His 2nd 3peat he averaged higher than his career average defensive win shares. Unless you meant wizards then sure he was just average to decent.
Not to discount Jordan but the bulls were defensive juggernauts (2nd in Defensive rating) even when Mj missed most of the 94/95 season, defense is a collective team thing where everyone benefits stats wise, like the advanced metrics for the thunder this year
Also, Jordan gambled way too much on defense. Was great with the guy in front of him, but when he went for the steal if he missed he was always completely out of the play and would give up to go cherry pick. Excellent on double teams as well, but as far as cohesive team defense strategy he just didn't really do that like top defenders do
Good thing they stopped awarding Lebron with defensive teams more than a decade ago. They noticed his defensive decline immediately. Kobe however? Lmao
He's right. Kobe was legitimately 1st team all-defense during the Frobe days, but after that it was mainly reputation as his offensive load had to increase. The reputation picks back then were far from being just a Kobe thing, but he definitely benefited the most from it.
This isn't even controversial. This has been said many times. The writers were way more reputation based for the majority of Kobe's career. They had less data and viewing ability at their disposal.
Edit: The coaches voted on Kobe's selections not the writers but I feel like that strengthens my point that it was reputation selections.
Mans was wrong as shit with his whole premise but feels his point was strengthened lmaoo.
Genuinely unbelievable. Dude mega-exposed himself as being someone who didn’t follow the league at the time and thinks that reinforces how valid his opinion is.
Pretty much this thread in general lol. Nobody's actually watched back then and just parrot other comments
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idk I'd vote for him all-commenter team for this post
The coaches didn't give a shit about voting. That's why this happened
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Kobe haters stay eating on this sub
Rare Marquis Teague appearance wow
he is always there. might be a fixture on this morning thing they do
It's not that rare lmao
he's been there since February/March iirc
Ahh the weekly Reddit Kobe-hate circle jerk. Bunch of salty nerds on this sub
This can be said for all accolades where voters are involved. As long as awards are not solely metric based, all of them can be argued that they didn’t deserve it.
Why his home boys disagreeing with the nba player 🤣
Marquis Teague was an NBA player
and co-owner of the ugliest brothers in the league title.
by FAR!
Marquis Teague was in the NBA and BHen played college ball believe it or not
Jeff Teague’s word isn’t law just because he’s played in the nba he’s had some bad takes
This isn’t one of them
kobes last 1st defensive team was 2011 Jeff Teague was only in his 2nd year & avg 5ppg but talks about.. kobe after his 4 or 5
Bc he was in the nba doest mean he cant have a bad take
Kobe Glaze is a serious condition
I have to agree, I think Kobe deserved the first few early in his career and around 2008 maybe where it seemed like he put a reemphasis on defense but he shouldn’t have been a 12x All Defense member
Not that he was a bad defender some of those seasons, but he really only turned it up and locked in during the clutch (which is fine)
I’ve seen people make a Derek Jeter comparison with his gold gloves but I think that’s a little harsh considering Jeter was never a positive defender and Kobe was
Definitely deserved his early ones. Best defender at his position those days
Love that the counter to his claim that he didn’t deserve 12 All-Defensive Teams was “He made 12 All-Defensive Teams! So you know he was playing some defense.”
He isn't wrong, Laker fans won't want to hear it but the last couple he got it was purely off reputation. Can't be hindsight Harry's because he unfortunately passed away, the majority of people at the time were saying he didn't deserve them.
There’s Kobe fans, Bron fans then Laker fans. It’s hard to tell the difference sometimes lol but I’m not mad at this take. I do see how this just might look like hate because there’s been a lot of discourse around his legacy the last couple weeks randomly
You have Tmac to thank for that. Dude was all about how close he and Kobe were when he died but the jealousy runs deep I suppose.
He's right about the the last couple. I thought it was odd he kept getting them but I didn't complain.
I just hate that the dumber people will hear this discourse and it eventually snowball from "He got the last couple on reputation" to "Kobe was always trash at defense and didn't deserve any because he was a rapist!"
He's correct. Kobe was a great defender for a big chuck of his career, but 12 seasons? Absolutely not.
Kobe was a superstar who could defend when necessary, but the idea that he was a two way player or an effective stopper (especially later in his career) is way overblown. Wayyyy overblown.
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I mean those guys deserved the nod, especially if they were known for their defense and not their offense. Add in dudes like Tony Allen, Shane Battier, and Rondo. There’s a lot of dudes who were better than Kobe on that end late in the 2000’s. You also had stars like Chris Paul or Wade who were better.
He guarded lebron no problems
I’m a huge Kobe dickrider and I never thought he was some great lockdown defender.
If the game was close he would lock in at the end though. But he wasn’t like forcing someone to go 2/8 in the 3rd quarter or something
I’m not even a fan of Kobe and I’m not gonna act like one just because he passed but they questioning him like a mf. Once you gone people feel more comfortable speaking their mind and other people may try to boost you up it goes both ways
Just stay shitting on Kobe since he died
I agree. At best he deserved 5 out of his total 9 first team all defense selection.
In his last 2 championship imo he definitely wasnt elite defender anymore
I mean it's pretty obvious awards (especially defensive awards) are something to always question. Tim Duncan anchored so many championship level defenses and has zero DPOYs. Anthony Davis is another guy who has been the best defender in the league many times and has zero DPOYs. While Rudy has 4 DPOYs😅.
Reddits gonna love this one
Honestly a lot of people my age (mid 40s) said the same thing for many years while Kobe was still playing. His defense was really overrated.
It wasn't until like 2015 where their was a shift in actually rewarding defensive specialists.
Like one or two made the team each year.
He’s not wrong, this happened to a few of the great guys. D wade was a dog on defense and to the day he retired lots of people would call him a good defender. He was one of the best in his heyday but it fell off a steep cliff. LeBron same story but that was an effort thing not an aging thing like wade.
it's crazy how anytime there's criticism of his all-defensive teams come up, it's seen as hate. Looking at all other platforms, everyone just thinks with emotion and nostalgia. His last 3-4 selections were SOLELY reputation based. OP even quotes Phil's quote as if fans know better than the fucken coach. IIRC, even Lebron mentioned one time that as he was getting older, it was Kobe who taught him how to conserve energy (cough coasting on defense - hence how Lebron started getting that reputation).
Kobe deferred defensive assignments mainly to Ariza and Ron/MWP as he got a better team around him, just like Jordan had Pippen for the defensive assignments back inthe day. Kobe might have gotten switched on or asked for the assignment come clutch time but he was not a defensive savant like he was earlier in his career. People were either too young or straight up forget
He got a at least a couple of his last ones based off of clout, but he was absolutely an incredible defensive player for much of his career (first half or so at least.)
His co host have no say especially the fat mother that just rambles on dumb ish as if hes done something.
The all defense selections felt more like “maybe should be the mvp but instead we will give you all nba and all defense nods instead.” There were definitely better guard defenders a good chunk of Kobe’s career. Basically all of it. But he was a household name and one of the few stars that did give high effort on that end. Usually. In a time that perimeter defense was not that celebrated he was just an easy vote for the media I think.
All defense awards are nothing but reputation and narrative awards.
Man, the hate and disrespect you all have for Kobe in here is unreal. Even after all these years, you don't stop trying to tear his legacy down. He really lives rent free in your heads even after he's passed.
Can we please ban all Jeff Teague and Gilbert Arenas podcast clips
12 is a lot for Kobe though
I think the shock of Kobe's death finally dissipating and now people's real feelings coming out
That plus the general trend of diminishing former player's accomplishments explains all these recent Kobe hot takes
Kobe hate this late crazy. And it be bias and hypocritical. Pippen guarded the best player on the bulls. LeBron hasn’t played defense since he let Miami and that was a 4th quarter thing. Highlighting a book of a coach who shitted on him ain’t what y’all think
Phil must be a bum too?
Phil always talked shit to and about Kobe at times to motivate him. Kobe would always admit to this as did Phil. He loved doing this in press conferences as well while he was coaching at times
People always ask stars who is the person that was the hardest to score against, come to think of it, I never heard anyone ever say Kobe.
Have you ever heard someone say Jordan, LeBron, Duncan, etc? “Hardest to score on” is reserved for defensive specialists who can afford to hound you all game, let’s use our heads here.
Just because I was curious, Teague entered the league in 2010 and Kobe retired in 2016. In the 7 seasons that they were in the league together, Jeff Teague averaged 12.1 points, 5.2 assists, 2.2 turnovers, and shot 45% from the floor.
When he specifically played against the Lakers with Kobe playing, 11.4 points, 3.8 assists, 1.1 turnovers, and shot 43% from the floor.
Gotta be honest, was hoping to learn that he either wrecked the Lakers or got smothered, but it was pretty close to par for the course for Teague.
Its funny how his analysis is from him watching Kobe up close up starting in Kobe’s year 14
This exact sentiment was reflected by his coach Phil Jackson
This shouldn't be controversial
So funny seeing nephews get triggered over Kobe lmao
Even back then Kobe had some dubious all-defensive selections but most people treated them like Derek Jeter winning gold gloves at the end is his career, like it was about his name and rep and not worth getting into it too much
Which is funny because it was only after he stopped playing that people have finally mentioned how Jeter's defense was overrated and his low percentage of errors was in part due to his lack of range and making routine plays look much more difficult than how other short stops would field similar plays with relative ease.
My friend who follows baseball a lot more closely than me used to say this almost 20 years ago and he was in the minority at the time because of those enamored with Jeter's post season heroics including that flip play that wasn't even an out (Giambi was safe) so he felt pretty vindicated when advanced stats and metrics confirmed what he had been saying for years.
As an A's fan, you ruined my night. Thanks.
same for jordan tbh
Same with LeBron
Let's make one thing clear: he was indisputably a good individual defender and was very good at off ball defense (and communication), but was stuck on teams with no real defense for years during his prime. I think some might have just been nods but Teague's take here is really overblown.
I think he means 08 onwards honestly. And he’s probably spot on
but he was still a good defender all those years
Aka year 13 and later as a guard. In those days even playing at a decent level in year 13 was incredible
i think it was 2005 or 2006 when Kobe randomly just came into the season like 10-15 pounds bulkier, not fat, but just bulkier
the season prior to that was probably the last time he was for sure all defense
the years from like 07-13, idk i'd have to see who the competition was
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Well sure but him having 1 MVP is just damage control for the league. Woopsie
He didn’t have to guard you that’s why. When he had to guard Teague was more like a travel day.
I am a Kobe fan but I agree. He doesn’t deserves all those all defense nominations.
Phil Jackson mentioned in his book that Kobe got his last few all defensive teams off of his reputation more so than his defensive play.
Kind of the way defense is unfortunately. Everyone’s reputation is a year or two behind what they really are.
For sure, rather hilarious how quickly the voters moved on from Lebron compared to anyone else who was a staple on the all defensive team.
One of the most drastic fall offs on the defensive end
One of the most overexaggerated fall offs on the defensive end, for sure. People talked about his defense in 2019 like they talk about his defense in 2025 due to a few cherry picked clips. Reality was a bit different.
https://youtu.be/Hsxlu7nYdhU?si=5gLDD4FPQq6ulyQs
It started when he went back to Cleveland
in b4 Rudy Gobert
That wasn't about his last few all defensive selections that was about his best "defensive" years. The book with that quote came out in 2004.
Kobe was given the First team all defensive nod 7 more times after '03.. It's was always ridiculous voting after '03.
That isnt unique to Kobe.
There was a Gold Glove problem in baseball before DRS became a stat where the established guy won it every year over younger guys until they retired.
It might have been Jayson Starks, I can’t remember exactly, but some writer did a deep dive on how many snubs at 3B and SS there were just because the established guy.
It’s happened forever. It will happen forever.
Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter
Jeter is hilarious because he was a bad defender but his highlights looked dope. What people missed was his range was absolute shit
Yeah, he should have been a 2B.
I'm a lifetime Yankee fan and absolutely love the Captain, but Jeter getting the GG at SS was literally Satanic.
The dude is one of the worst defensive SS to ever play the game. Cashman had to have several meetings with him telling him that he needs to work on his atrocious defense. Jeter himself has said that he had no idea he was a bad shortstop, because no one would "dare" to tell him that.
He averaged -10 run totals per year, and -9 Rdrs per year. 44 players out of 47 players who fielded SS for more than 50 games last year recorded better than -10 rt/year. Jeter's average defense was as bad as the current league's worst defensive shortstop's career worst season in defense.
I think one of them was A-Rod when he moved to third. Chavez was the established guy but A-Rod had a couple years better. But there were far more egregious of the guy winning over a newcomer. Chavez was still peak.
I give Chavez somewhat of a pass there considering he never made an all-star roster.
Not SS or 3rd but Greg Maddux won 18. That’s absolutely ridiculous
And before him, Jim Kaat won 16.
They field fewer innings per year than position players, so reputation probably mattered a lot more, with fewer opportunities for guys to make an impression or undermine it.
And honestly, a lot of pitchers are pretty bad at fielding. There's just no selection pressure in play for how good they are at fielding the position; it's all about the pitching portion of the job, so the ones like Kaat and Maddux who made a real point of it stood out from the crowd.
Palmeiro won a gold glove with 28 games at 1st base and the rest as a DH.
Yep you needed to be the best defender right at the point that guy who had the 3B gold glove for 15 years retired. If you missed that window you'd go your entire career without winning one.
Nobody said it was
Isn't this on jordan as well?
I just don't understand how someone like shane battier, a defensive specialist has 2 all defenses but kobe and jordan have 10+
Shane battier was a forward. As such, he was competing with the likes of Tim Duncan, KG, Ron Artest, LBJ, Tayshaun Prince, Kenyon Martin, Bruce Bowen, AK47 and Shawn Marion etc.
Kobe, however, was competing with a weaker pool of defensive players. The positional voting system was flawed.
No, Jordan actually was great on defense his entire Bulls stint. The metrics back it up too. It’s one of the big differences between Kobe and MJ, that MJ was able to retain his defensive prime while also hitting his offensive prime whereas Kobe’s defensive prime was until mid 2000s and fell off when he started shouldering a larger offensive load
That's pretty cool to hear man
It's just when people list their defensive rushmore and add Jordan and Lebron and kobe cuz of all defense selections it rubs me a bit wrong, especially when they don't have someone like pippen on it
Yeah Pip was a better defender but he’s arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever so no shame being behind him. MJ still was a fantastic defender who isn’t really in the same category as Kobe here. Lebron is tricky. His defensive peak was really good but also fairly short.
I mean purely looking at guards Jordan is in the conversation for best ever. Probably not #1 but he needs to be included.
MJ and Kobe were guards. There was less competition for defensive guards in the 2000s and usually the taller guards shined. Battier was amazing defensively but most of the defensive specialists and defensive fundamentalists during his time were also forwards, which lumps him up with players like KG and Timmy as examples.
Isn’t Jordan like third all time in steals?
steals are a bad metric for being a good (on-ball) defender. iverson was an awful defender who got a ton of steals. jokic gets a ton of steals and is average on defense at best
Jordan was amazing on defense and also got a lot of steals.
this is true! but steals aren’t what made jordan a great defender
He also mentioned that Kobe stopped playing defense after like 03 even though he rode his defense all in that 04 finals