news
IRS says churches whose pastors endorse candidates from pulpit shouldn't lose tax-exempt status
Discussion
Cool cool cool, this directive directly violates the Johnson Amendment, Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.
And if the IRS refuses to enforce its own rules, then it doesn't matter.
So when are we all changing our tax deductions at work? It's come up a few times but at what point do WE see we're being taxed without representation?
Aren't GOP already refusing to send money for MA schools? As an MA resident, it's already happening!
North Carolina schools too, they have a democratic governor which tells you how gerrymandered the state is...
Didn’t the GOP Governor elect love porn and got caught with online remarks
Mark Robinson is a cancer. Thankfully we didn’t elect him
It definitely is gerrymandered, but blue states have red governors all the time and red states get blue ones. Governors don't follow the presidential results in most states
The GOP is withholding money from all the blue states. No representation here in Washington. I'm going to become a church.
please remember to send donations. We're doing God's work!
WA too. Money they are owed.
at what point do WE see we're being taxed without representation?
Laughs nervously as a DC resident, who pays Federal taxes but has no voting representation on Capitol Hill
Since the beginning of this administration, really. It's not where it started, but it's definitely very out in the open what they're doing. Removed us from the WHO which helped with tracking infectious disease, keeping us healthy, etc. Pulling money/cancelling programs that help people and are not supposed to make money. Planned Parenthood, children's summer camps, public school food program, USPS, USAID, etc.
This whole administration is having me lean into my husband’s idea of just not paying taxes. We might not file next year.
Filling is you getting overpayments back, you should file so you’re not giving them more than you need to.
What you wanna do is stop deductions from your check going forward, meaning you would owe them money.
Sure they’ll probably try to claw it back, but with gutting the IRS staffing/funding good luck going after everyone.
The idea of overpayments kills me.
It's an interest free loan the government strips from your paycheck all year long and then forces you to beg to get the part they shouldn't have taken back.
They know how much you owe and still send you to a private for-profit company to get that money back. AND they penalize you if you don't beg on time.
INFURIATING.
Precisely the amount required, and only that, should ever be taking from anyone.
Indeed it's just ANOTHER fucking PSEUDO-TAX on the plebs.
I am SICK and FUCKING TIRED of it.
Sick of the LYING. Tired of the STEALING. DO NOT GET ME STARTED on the killing.
but with gutting the IRS staffing/funding good luck going after everyone.
Yeah they'll be going after the poor more. It's the rich that take resources to go after.
The rich can afford tax lawyers. The poor can't even afford to go fuck themselves with a rented dick.
Sure they’ll probably try to claw it back, but with gutting the IRS staffing/funding good luck going after everyone.
Such horrible advice. The IRS with low staffing/funding goes for the low hanging fruit, not the whales.
Yes but if 50,000,000 Americans are the "low hanging fruit" they genuinely can't go after us all and the government won't have the money to do anything about it.
I could be wrong, but I’ve heard that low income tax dodging responses are largely automatically flagged at the IRS.
They already know how much they need from the vast majority of us.
The ONLY reason you don't just get a letter/email saying we took X amount is due to LOBBYING from FASCIST organizations.
It also takes time anyway. Very low odds you get caught this time next year because it usually takes a few years for them to notice. Who the fuck knows what this shit hole will actually look like by that time, if it still exists at all.
The IRS sent me to collections for a $104 unpaid balance from 2023, I wouldn't gamble on them simply ignoring you.
I already changed mine. I'm not paying Federal taxes anymore. Send me a bill, I'll work out a payment plan later and you can get the bare minimum payment to satisfy you until this regime is gone.
The problem there is that there are fines if you owe more than a certain percentage, and the payment plan will require interest.
I'm all for creative tax solutions that would result in giving this administration the least amount of money... but fines and interest give them more.
Just a heads up, they rarely enforced this one as it was. I've reported several pastors/churches for this and from what I've learned, those reports are rarely followed up on.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/07/churches-list-violations-johnson-amendment/
Yep I grew up southern Baptist and they were always telling their congregations how to vote.
You need more Southern Baptists getting up there and shouting to heaven. "WE SOUTHERN BAPTISTS WOULD NOT EXIST BUT WE WANTED TO KEEP OUR SLAVES!". Half of them would clap and go 'AMEN!', but that is literally why the baptist split happened.
I think the problem is more will do it, more systematically, and more openly. It has always been an issue, but now that they have permission it will become the norm instead of an unaddressed exception.
Where I am, when a church wants to expand/build new, the church leaders straight up tell the elected officials to pass the rezoning or they'll encourage their congregation to support their opponents. They've leveraging their power at every level for a long ass time.
Considering if they did, the GOP officials would go after them, because the Buy-Bull thumpers vote, so IRS knows whose bread is buttered.
the Buy-Bull thumpers
The who ?
Bible.
Buy-Bull.
Buy-bullshit.
I’m guessing.
You know, I owe the IRS money. And I'm just taking it nice and slow, as we appear to be going back to the wild west where rules don't really matter anymore. Of course I'll pay my remainder owed, but really...why? If most of the normal rules of government just don't matter anymore, why should I try to be a good citizen?
Rules for thee and not for me. Someone has to finance their reign of terror.
I owe quite a bit. (Self employed so it's all on me.) I just can't bring myself to care. I make the minimum payments to keep them off my ass. I'm in debt to the irs but... okay. That money is apparently going to ice so uh. No.
Of course I'd rather be debt free but that's not in the cards right now. But my usual anxiety I'd have over owing so much is just gone.
Claim exempt, encourage your neighbors and friends to do it too. Nothing matters anymore and the only way we can stop this government is to make them realize who has the power. Stop funding them. Claim exempt.
Laws only matter if honest people are able and willing to enforce them.
In a joint court filing intended to end an ongoing case against the IRS, the tax collection agency and the National Religious Broadcasters Association - a Evangelical media consortium - and other plaintiffs have asked a federal court in Texas to stop the government from enforcing the Johnson Amendment against the plaintiffs.
The Johnson Amendment to the U.S. tax code prohibits tax-exempt organizations, including churches, from endorsing or opposing political candidates.
The Christian media group and others sued the IRS last August, saying the amendment violates their First Amendment rights to the freedom of speech and free exercise of religion, among other legal protections. On Monday, the IRS and plaintiffs wrote that the Johnson Amendment should be interpreted "so that it does not reach communications from a house of worship to its congregation in connection with religious services through its usual channels of communication on matters of faith."
It would seem they are aware of the Johnson Amendment, but claim it violates their First Amendment rights. To which I say "fine, endorse whatever candidates you want, but then you're not entitled to your tax-exempt status. You can't have it both ways"
And then where is the line drawn? All religions? What about LGTBQ+ tax-exempt entities? The line totally isn't drawn to end at Christian churches/organizations. This is aallll a good faith effort to ensure first amendment rights (/s)
Well hopefully the church of Satan can pull a stunt to show it's an insane double standard, won't change anything
Holy shit I was confused at first because my brain read that headline as what it SHOULD be (that they SHOULD lose tax exempt status) before I remembered that this is Hell, nor am I out of it.
The same tax code that gives preferential treatment to religious establishments over other nonprofits?
Fuck the establishment clause, I guess.
Why should I have to pay taxes
Just become a “church” and you won’t have to.
You know what, I think God IS telling me that I'm a chosen one and need to start a new religion and church...
Well...my body is a temple.
I'm gonna count it.
Oh, I got some bad news.
I found this qualifying statement for becoming a tax exempt facility.
“In order to be a church, it must regularly and physically assemble people together for the purpose of services. If there are no regular physical assemblies of people together, then it does not qualify as a tax-exempt church.”
Do orgies count?
Question......what if I claim my house as a church? It regularly has an assembly of at least 2 people. Sometimes 4 or up to 8. But always 2. We gather in a specific room everyday to listen to the word......of youtube.....and tubi......and hbo...................and hulu
Our Lady of Exemption
The church down the street from me was sold for $1, gets reduced utility rates, free labor, pays no property taxes, and gets exemptions for any city permitting for events nor do they have to abide by code enforcement.
They can host parties at 1am, shut down the street and perform their own traffic control, and build whatever structures they want including a boarding house.
But me? Nope, my taxes go up each year and I am permanently locked into RS4 zoning with covenants. I can’t have an RV parked in my driveway hooked up to my sewer without the county red tagging it.
But the church? They have 6 RVs parked in their lot doing the same thing with no issue.
Rules for thee not for meeee
The American motto
Sounds like your neighborhood needs a Satanic Temple.
The church in my city bought a huge mall property to convert and also lease their land to various restaurants and businesses. They pay no property taxes so the city ended up losing out on 6 figures a year versus what they were getting pre-church.
Former minister here:
Yes they should.
There's not enough caps lock in the world for me to sufficiently express just how much disdain I have for this.
The biggest protection we had against being a Theocracy, created specifically because people were starting to notice a risk coming back in the 50s and wanted to strengthen the protections we had in place to keep the separation of church and state more secure.
And we now have the IRS saying "nah, nevermind".
They are simply announcing ahead of time that they plan to selectively enforce the law. We all know that as soon as they catch some progressive church promoting some progressive politician that they will move very quickly to remove tax exempt status from that church.
Surely churches won’t start advocating for the party that’s cutting government services directly leading to preventable suffering and death, and whos party leader is civilly liable for sexual abuse and criminally liable for fraud?
Of course they won't start. They've been doing so for years now.
No church should be exempt from taxes, they should be paying. It's outrageous that they are not.
There shouldn't be a special exempt category for churches, but if there wasn't they would easily qualify under other categories. A secular organization that held weekly gatherings to read a book, sing songs and listen to lectures about values would generally not have trouble being recognized as a non profit.
So wait we can use the church of Satan to endorse candidates now?
The question in regards to this would be is it better to start contributing towards progressive causes or rather have hyper conservative candidates endorsed by the church of Satan to see how fast their voter base turns.
Have they ever? It's already been happening for years and I haven't heard of any churches being held to account.
Christian conservatives are killing this country. They already were but expect religion, but only a very specific version of it, is injected into everything we do.
Boo, tax those churches!
That's been the case for decades so they're just making it official now I guess.
Cool! Hey, Mosques, you hearing this?
Why would the IRS start making policy or laws?
Yeah, I thought the end of Chevron deference meant that the federal agencies don't get to interpret laws as they see fit.
That's stupid, at that moment they become a political organization and should be taxed thusly.
Project 2025 continues to be implemented
I am a church then. Stop taking my money.
Churches should lose tax exempt status for not giving money to the poor, you know, the whole basis behind not taxing them in the first place.
Good old authoritarian theocracy, historically never has problems right?
The whole Sharia law fearmongering was projection all along.
Then unions should be able to endorse candidates also.
They already do.
Coming soon, Church of the CatTurd
“Carrying a bible and wrapped in the flag.”
We are well and truly hosed.
I'm going to declare myself a church.
Never trust a pastor who tells you how to vote and never trust a politician who tells you how to pray.
If churches can stay tax-exempt after openly choosing a candidate, I can stay tax-exempt from giving my money to a corrupt administration.
Churches shouldn't be tax-exempt in the first place.
Time to open more of the non-political political tax-exempt churches. Maybe Church of the Homeless and Hungry? Church of Reason?
Religion is an attractive fraud to control and manipulate people , governments have used it for millennia.
All of the rules have gone out the window. We need a complete reset of how our government is held accountable for its actions.
The IRS quit enforcing the rule decades ago, so may as well make it official.
"Unless they're endorsing liberals...then they can go fuck themselves. In Jesus' name, of course." - Also the IRS
Laws seem to mean nothing around here anymore
I’ve been a churchgoer my whole life and I’ve never had a pastor endorse a political candidate from the pulpit across three different denominations. It’s really not necessary and any pastor who says it is needs to rethink their career.
Every church/religion should be paying taxes. No free rides for the cults.
But we’re fine as long as they endorse the right candidate, eh?
a federal court in Texas
Huh, wonder which one.
Tree of liberty doesn't just grow in Boston.
Separation of Church and State is gone, we are fucked
Watch the IRS decide to go after a church that endorses anyone remotely democratic though...
Not surprising; this is basically the situation today. They're just formally acknowledging it.
Only for Christian churches, of course. Let one mosque step out of line and ICE will be swarming the place.
The Christian media group and others sued the IRS last August, saying the amendment violates their First Amendment rights to the freedom of speech and free exercise of religion, among other legal protections.
It very clearly does. The issue is that churches being exempt from taxes isn't part of the constitution. It's just a privilege afford to churches by the IRS/Government. No political support from churches is just part of the deal for getting tax exempt status. Don't want to abide by the terms? Then just pay taxes, it's that easy.
So yeah, it's unconstitutional, but you don't get one without the other and I don't think churches want the other, aka having to pay taxes, Especially considering that the rule is never even enforced. Sp if they rid of the rule, then they should get rid of tax exemption too.
(Don't get me wrong, I realize that churches actually paying taxes right now is probably complicated as there wouldn't be a group for them to file under and be taxed the appropriate amount, unless they decided to "lie" and file as a business or an organization.)
Edit: Holy shit (pun intended). I just now realize that the title says SHOULDN'T as in, they SHOULD NOT lose their tax exempt status over this. I was really confused going through the comments and seeing everyone against this because I thought it said that they SHOULD lose their tax exempt status, which they obviously should, but wow. When you think this government couldn't get any more corrupt, they come up with something new to show you naive you were.
Then it's time for every business in the county to register as a church if they can whatever the fuck they want.
A green light for conservative political values and propaganda being shat out from church aholes to benefit the rich. It's exactly what their jesus would have wanted.
Separation of church and state.......IRS needs to go back to Civics class
We are doomed. People are going to keep believing someone else should be doing something about the things happening and the other side is going to believe everything is going well and if it is going poorly, then that is the other side’s fault.
I am assuming there is a second half with something like "Unless they go against the president/gop" .
All churches and religious organizations should lose their tax exempt status.
When will it end?! This is systematic dismantling of our country!!
I bet as soon as they endorse a Dem, then the IRS will go after them for taxes.
Nice. More christian nationalism.
How about churches just get taxed like any other business?
Project 2025 movin' right along.
Churches shouldn't have tax exempt status in the first place.
Fucking kangaroo government, there are no fucking rules or laws now really. Go fucking crazy I guess
Seriously. How does that work. Non profits get to preach from the pulpit for voters? What happened to non profits could not be partisan? Isn’t that essentially why they went after acorn and planned parenthood?
Then WHEN?
WHAT does a church has to do to lose it?
All churches should lose that status. Jesus said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's".
3000% they should lose it.
Heads up: they weren't enforcing it anyway. Now, they're just admitting it and legitimizing what was already common practice (ignoring reports). But they'll for sure audit your 89 year old granny with dementia over $324!
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/07/churches-list-violations-johnson-amendment/
I wonder if the new rule applies to Imams and Rabbis. Is it just for pastors? Does it still apply if the pastor is endorsing a liberal candidate?
I feel like you know the answer