under 2 years, you don't serve it in Spain
on non violent crimes
but what kind of violent crime has a sentence under 2 years? A street fight?
Tickle fight
Cripple Fight!
TIMMYYYYYYYYYYY
my dad stabbed a dude in self defense few years back, got 5ish years iirc and only served 6-7 months before getting released on parole.
how is self defence a crime?
because technically my dad "could have defended himself without a lethal weapon." What happened was that dude barged into his home and attacked him; they were tussling in the kitchen, and my dad grabbed a kitchen knife from the ground and stabbed him in the abdomen. The dude stormed out and called 911 before collapsing outside the apartment; he's all okay now.
My dad got real spooked and ran to his friend's house, after which he turned himself in an hour later. Turns out he should have just pushed him out of the house? I dunno. It's in the past at this point.
So dumb of the judge. If someone is invading your home you shouldn’t have to risk fighting him on a level playing field! What is this nonsense! Your dad was more than justified to stab him. If he’d just used his fists, it’s possible the maniac would have killed him.
yeah it was off, he was on probation for 2ish years after his release. He had huge difficulties going on vacations or doing any business outside his town.
What typa stupid ass law is this.
I dont know they got all pissy about him not calling the cops as his first priority instead of opening the door, as if he could have known the dude would assault him when he opened the door.
prob had a shitty lawyer
Delivered The People's Eyebrow on numerous occasions.
I'd say assault can be mild enough to not get a 2 year sentence.
Street slap fights, usually stay under a year iirc. Those happen a lot there
A punch in a bar is like 14 days suspended here
What’s the point then? Does it aggregate?
Might be wrong but I always thought it was like a suspended sentence
Yes and it aggregates if he gets jail time in the future
Oh and can you reset to a blank slate by serving the time voluntarily?
If only there was some way of phrasing his punishment that didn't suggest he's going to serve time behind bars
Carlo Clemancylotti
As per Reuters:
Spanish law is such that any sentence under two years for a non-violent crime rarely requires a defendant without previous convictions to serve jail time.
We all know that he won't serve it lol
isnt it common for people in spain to get suspended sentences for non violent crimes if its less than 2 years? same reason why messi and mourinho didnt get any jail time for when they got done for dodging tax
Yes, Spain doesn’t usually serve actual prison time for smaller non violent sentences
I mean at that point just give them a massive fine proportional to income or net worth depending on how much that net worth is
However, the sentence is just suspended if you get another one you might end up in jail for a long time
Sounds like a probation thing?
Suspended sentence it's called.
A suspended sentence is the terminology you're looking for lol
A suspended sentence results in probation which, if you violate, often leads to the suspension of the sentence getting revoked.
But that would be far too logical
A suspended sentence isn't nothing.
Yeah sure, but if its for tax fraud, just give a fucking fine lol. At the very least the state gets some extra money (assuming the additional frauded tax is not counted)
They do get a fine, but that is handled by he tax office as part of the deal to pay back the taxes they dodged, not the criminal court.
I received your fine. Believe it or not. Jail.
If you read the article he was also fined nearly 400k euro and is limited as to what social services he can use for 3 years.
These athletes typically also get a massive fine as part of the deal they make to pay their taxes, it just isnt part of the criminal sentencing.
In cases where it isn't tax fraud the court typically doesn't just hand out suspended sentences, they are accompanied by fines, restitution or community service.
It makes sense to be honest, it would be strange to imprison tax fraud with more serious offences.
Yeah, non violent crimes and the only one defrauded was the government, might as well force them to pay and leave them free to get more taxable income.
"The only one defrauded was the government"
Well, and basically everyone in the country, assuming that tax money is used for the good of the people. Maybe that's a bit idealistic.
also love how casually people just agree that oh yeah white collar criminals stealing hundreds of thousands or millions of euros, nah give them a ticket and wag of the finger....but those nasty poor people who steal a phone? yeah prison for life....
Nah, they should definitely not be in prison as well. There are better punishments for people like that, like community service or being put on some kind of rehabilitation program so they can be reintegrated into society.
You need a deterrent for others to not commit tax fraud. Deterring the offender from repeating and deterring others are part of the reason society punishes offences. Another reason is retribution of damage caused.
You could argue paying the tax and a big fine is enough of a deterrent. But adding a suspended prison sentence on top of those two is definitely more of a deterrent.
Poor people committing big theft often end up in prison by lack of proper defense representation so I don’t get why wealthy people stealing money from everyone by willingly escaping their fair share of taxes shouldn’t…
That's the thing, I believe non violent crimes or crimes that aren't dangerous to society shouldn't get prison time. At most they should have to do community services or pay a big fine.
A fine is not a valid punishment for ultra wealthy people anymore as they just consider this as the cost of doing business…
The fine has to be significantly larger than the amount of tax they avoided for it to make sense. You are less likely to risk avoiding paying £1m in tax if you know there is a good chance you will get a £10m fine no matter how much money you have
Not paying taxes is incredibly dangerous to society. Taxes are how we pay for the fabric of society.
I feel the opposite, these people literally stole millions, while some victim of circumstance might actually go to jail because they stole 100 euros worth because they do not have the money to afford a good lawyer.
It's theft and should be taken much more seriously imo. These slaps on the wrist are the reason it keeps happening.
I dunno. To my mind, tax fraud is a much more serious offence than lots of stuff that routinely ends with more severe judgements. Seriously think it's basically yet another case of Justitia's blindfold being somewhat insufficiently opaque when it comes to rich buggers.
Just saw a good explanation of crime as a social construct. Swipe a few designer bags from a store and you’ll go to jail for at least a year, losing so much in opportunity and setting you back for life.
Defraud the country of millions, poison rivers, or generally speaking take advantage of the public as a corporation and at most you’ll pay a fine and get a slap on the wrist.
never forget: corps aren't just people, they're the most important people. maybe the only people the government will actually acknowledge as such, alongside the billionaire owners
It's the way most european nations do it.
That’s kind of the point in Spain though
how come
Spain doesn’t send you to prison for non violent offences under 2 years. Normally suspended with conditions
Everyone learned the suspended sentence rule when it happened to Messi
Nobody expects Spanish inquisition - but a visit and a court charge from Spanish tax authority is basically a given.
I think it should be for his treatment towards Arda Guler but I suppose tax fraud is bad as well
let this man preach
To the Hague for his treatment of Arda
He is the coach that almost made Kimmich leave Bayern
He should get some fine eveytime he put Lucas Vázquez in the starting 11.
The Al Capone Special
Agreed. Lock him up.
Agreed, whip him 40 times
Carlo should be sent to Alligator Alcatraz for his treatment of Guler
I'm always surprised by people not understanding suspended sentences. I thought it was a thing across Europe. We have it here and I'm damn near on the opposite side of the continent from Spain.
Of course, it exists in most places.
Problem is, most people are hugely ignorant of the law and workings of the legal system, even in their own country. They know very little and even what they think they know is mostly inaccurate.
As someone in the legal profession, I feel like I'm going crazy reading some of these comments confidently stating nonsense as though it were factual. But it's too tiring to correct everybody so I just read and despair lol (very productive, I know).
people are not ignorant, but the title is stupid.
Suspended sentences are not reported as "sentenced to 1 year in prison". You can't fault people for not assuming that the headline is wrong. This should be reported as "sentenced to 1 year probation".
🤨
"Live Carlo reaction"
Brow fraud > Bald fraud
Don Carlo hearing that he's going to prison: 🤨
So is he exiled from Spain or will it be suspended on appeal?
As I understand, in Spain sentences of up to 2 years for non-violent crimes are always suspended.
lol as is the case with all footballer tax issues in Spain, it's most likely a suspended sentence. The tax system is apparently extremely convoluted which is why you see so many people getting tagged for tax evasion or tax fraud in some form or fashion. he's not going to jail
Remember Cristiano Ronaldo getting tagged because he got money from outside the country that wasn't properly taxed IIRC.
He should now get caught trying to enter Paraguay with a fake Paraguayan passport
This is going to ruin the cup.
What cup?
The World Cup
Can't have shit in Brazil ig
does his stint at Everton count as time served?
Why even say he's going it prison when we all know he won't.
In prison with shakira
Ancelotti when Spanish agents come to arrest him: "THIS IS BRAZIL" (Surrounded by bunch of street Futsal players on the streets of Rio)
What’s the point of these stupid suspended sentences? And always the rich are benefiting from such bullshit.
Tbf I bet the majority of suspended sentences are given to shoplifters etc.
And pickpocketers, which is partially why it's such an issue in big cities.
Shoplifters and really rich people
If you read the article he also needs to pay a nearly 400k euro fine and will be limited as to what social services he can use for 3 years.
It benefits anyone who commits a nonviolent crime, so such bullshit benefits you too
Typical clueless comment from someone who knows nothing about the law.
Suspended sentences are extremely common for non-violent crime, and no, you do not need to be rich to get a suspended sentence. I've personally worked on and seen hundreds of cases of suspended sentences even for people who are destitute.
As for the point, well, it's pretty simple. You committed a first offense and / or a non-violent offense, so we don't want to throw you in jail, but if you break the law again then you will have to serve the suspended sentence. So it hangs over your head like a sword of Damocles and acts as a deterrent (hopefully).
Oh no
Anyways
He aint serving it.
Everybody relax! In Spain you can rape someone and get away with just a fine. Tax fraud is childplay
Whatever happened to those Madrid youth players
How kind of them to wait more than 10 years. I'm sure they had a good reason.
The funny thing is that he was sentenced, but is going to receive a lot of money.
What in the wide world of sports is going on today.
How convenient, now that he is in Brazil and no longer in Spain. LMAO.
The Spanish government does this to everyone in the sport after they leave. They expect taxes to be paid in Spain in addition to whatever country the profit is from.
So any player or manager who makes any money abroad is technically committing tax fraud, even if they already paid taxes abroad.
It’s just an easy way for Spain to make a quick profit after high profile players leave
He is now eligible to make rap songs with his fellas
lol what the fuck
Free Don Carlo
No jail time of course. Why is tax fraud a serious crime in the UK but not Spain?
How he had to pay to avoid jail? Asking in case I want to commit tax fraud
Is this like an actual prison sentence or a white collar type deal where they actually don’t go to jail ?
Apparently in Spain, if your crime is non-violent and the sentence is under two years, there's rarely actual prison time. He does have to pay a fine of just under €400,000 though.
No one plays with Spanish Inquisition! Kidding, taxman.
when I thought bro couldnt get more italian
He will raise his eyebrow and the sentencing will be cancelled 🤨🤨.
Shocking, so will he serve in prison or just pay a fine?
Move to Brazil 2-3 years and forget
Lol did everyone in spanish soccer have the same shit accountant?
Ronaldo, messi, and modric all had this issue
Yes "issue".
Surprised you’re not getting a ton of replies from Madrid & Barça flairs saying it was actually a law that was changed both unfairly and retroactively (which is of course not true, you can't apply laws retroactively in Spain). Happens every time.
Edit: Oh they're just further down, along with the "oh so complicated Spanish tax laws" bros lmao. Man, is it sooo complicated that it's easier to create fake companies in tax havens? Seems to me you could just do your Declaración de la Renta and call it a day.
My understanding is that it's not that any law was changed so much as it is that there was previously a ruling government who was extremely favorable to La Liga's desire to have Spain not fully enforce their laws on high earners, which then allowed the likes of Barca and Real to go back to aggressively courting the world's top players at a time where the PL was suddenly dominating money in the sport like they'd never before seen.
Before Perez returned to Real in 2009 or so, they were having a fairly hard time luring top players over the likes of United and Chelsea because they weren't competitive in Europe, and they couldn't pay as much as English teams. Barca, for their part, had not yet become known for splashing insane money on players (pre-shirt sponsorship days), and was mostly successful thanks to La Masia. So the prevailing wisdom of the time amongst agents and executives was that unless Spanish authorities agreed to overlook these "creative, tax-free" arrangements with players, La Liga would go the way of Serie A and cease to a top league.
Then, years later, the government eventually changed, and were starting to enforce these laws again, which led to the series of court cases, fines, and suspended sentences we're all so familiar with.
TL;DR: La Liga utilized a tax haven of their own making through the powers of "look the other way" and "don't worry about it," but eventually the taxman stopped looking away, and the players did, in fact, have to worry about it.
Just for context, on 2005 we passed the Beckham Law , named after the first person who got to have it applied to themselves (guess who), which actually provides fiscal exemptions for foreigners working in spain. Still stands to this day. Just last year, Madrid passed a different one to provide further exemptions (within their means), dubbed the Mbappe Law
Both laws and their respective signings were surely unrelated, wink wink
Yes my fair is correct
This is interesting to read. I've recently moved to Spain, and when you look for tax advice from professionals, every professional gives different advice. No one agrees, and it's very common to read things in forums like "I hired a professional to help me with X, but now I'm getting this notice from the government".
When it comes to Beckham's law, groups of immigrants attempting to classify themselves under that regime have found that it's been highly encouraged by the government, only to later find that Hacienda turns around and says they weren't allowed on the program on technicalities, and the person is now on the hook for penalties, etc.
It seems to be a common theme across all income brackets that the government or Hacienda actively encourage certain tax benefits and incentives until they don't.
Thanks for the background, this makes sense
Its literally just stealing from poor people. Its a massive shame its not taken seriously.
Dont forget Shakira
Yolo lo le lo le MoFos
Holy fuck I heard this incantation in my head
I could never
never forget!
Skill issue
had this issue, ran into the same confusion, experienced similar friction in the process, did this crime, etc. how annoying.
The Issue: Being a greedy bastard.
Fuck Them and their mothers. All that money ans they still try to fuck society for 30% more, greedy fucking pricks
None of them handled their money, none of them knew what had occurred. The law had been applied one way, the government changed and applied it as written and suddenly a bunch of celebs who had been using experienced accountants all found themselves in hot water. None of them even knew what they did. If you look into it, it’s the same exact thing. There wasn’t some meeting where they all decided to open up off shore estates. It was something accountants did normally
We can be completely logical about this.
If we are truly to believe they played no part in this, how can one explain the correlation between athletes/celebrities earning more and more money being more and more likely to be the ones “using these accountants?”
Either they know that these accountants will “save them money” (doing the wrong thing) or they didn’t do their due diligence and are still responsible. Taxes aren’t your money, they’re money you owe. One thing for someone making 60k to underreport by accident, another for someone making 6m to do it by “accident.”
When you pay an expert to handle your money legally, that is what you expect to happen
Tax law is ridiculously complex. It is so complex that you would need to devote a significant chunk of your life to understanding it. That is why you pay a professional expert to do it for you and make sure that you are paying what you need to- the minimum you need to, yes. But you are paying the expert because they have knowledge you simply never will have. There is no such thing as "doing due diligence" unless you want to learn high level tax law.
I bet you are not volunteering to pay more tax than you need to every year?
When you hire an expert to do a job and ask them "is this legal?" When they reply yes with 100% confidence you just let them get on with their job, you don't question it.
Let’s say a business administrator hires an expert who says what he’s doing is “100% legal.” If it is later found that what he’s doing is not legal, do you think the business and admin are suddenly not going to be held accountable?
No one is saying they're not held accountable. But just because your accountant did something shady doesn't mean you're a bad person and you intended to "fuck society"
I love how naive some of you are.
Yes, Ancelotti asked his accountant "Is this legal ?" and his accountant replied "yes" because hell, the accountant first thought was "I bet señor Ancelotti will be happy with me commiting fraud, I might go to prison, but he will be richer!!!"
NO. They do it because either directly or indirectly Ancelotti, Ronaldo, Shakira, and all of them, mentioned avoiding taxes to their accountants or someone related to that.
The accountant doesn't just do it because he feels like too.
Your honor, I did not know how my own money was being handled. How can you blame me?!
Mascherano too IIRC
Iirc, they changed the law and then went for people and the people abusing the loophole didn't change fast enough.
They changed the interpretation of the law with retroactive effects.
Doesn't the retroactive effect of tax law only apply if it improves your situation?
It improves the Spanish tax service situation
Nobody expects the Spanish Tax Inquisition!
depends on the country. In the US, generally yes, although there are exceptions.
Ex Post Factos
Wouldn’t that be a little unconstitutional?
It is , they tried it in the UK for personal umbrella companies, and they had to cancel that
Pretty sure the change was retroactive
No the crackdown was retro active, the government at the time decided to chance policy and step up enforcement and checks on tax fraud. Because they wanted to make sure everyone would take notice they went after high profile cases to set an example. You can't change the law to make something illegal after the fact.
A government can. There is no physical law of the universe that prevents it.
Hopefully there are institutions that prevent it. Be they the lawmakers, courts, or even people themselves. But that doesn't mean it's completely unheard of.
It’s illegal in the states based on ancient legal theory “ex post facto”. I don’t know about other countries like Spain.
In the UK it is illegal under common law and it is also explicitly legal under the European human rights act of which Spain is also a signatory.
https://etctax.co.uk/knowledge_centre/retrospective-tax-legislation/
"Retrospective" in this context means that tax you owe can be calculated based on money you earned before the legislation came into force.
It definitely does NOT mean you can be criminalised for conduct that was legal before the law came into effect - which is what we're actually referring to here. That absolutely is prohibited by the ECHR - as your own link states.
"common law" is also an institution.
Well it means that judges rule on legal precedent, so it isn't a thing it itself, it just means that the British legal tradition does not behave in that way because it is adhering to previous decisions on the matter
Which means you are relying on the "institution" of a court of judges to protect you.
That would be one of those "institutions" I mentioned.
Sure you can. It's just not done because it would piss people off.
A lot of countries have constitutions that prevent it. Also a lot of countries have their law system based on Roman Law and even back then retroactively applying new laws wouldnt pass.
The UK made a retrospective tax change regarding EBTs, which is why Rangers ended up in lots of debt (but it also effected lots of companies and contractors)
https://www.thebanker.com/content/1405532a-ab9d-5029-ae60-991779a92da4
https://etctax.co.uk/knowledge_centre/retrospective-tax-legislation/
Morally I think it's wild that you can break without knowing it as the law didn't exist at the time, but in the case of tax law it does sometimes happen.
Is that spanishly legal?
iirc, everybody was using the same loophole, then Spain change the law on that and applied the rule retroactively. So almost everyone in La Liga would be guilty of tax fraud.
What was the loophole?
You sell your image rights outside of Spain while working in Spain, so you don’t have to pay the higher tax rates
Also, most of these guys would do it anyway as they manage their personal business affairs in their home nation
I altered the deal, pray i don't alter it further.
This deal is… very fair and I’m happy to be a part of it
How can a change of law be applied retroactively? This doesnt make sense
They did not change the law retroactively, people are just buffoons. They went about enforcing the existing laws retroactively after not doing so for years.
Pretty sure around 2015 they specifically stated that Footballer are exclude from the tax scheme that was created specifically for David Beckham and went back to investigate every footballer.
They did apply the law retroactively, this is allowed in spain for tax law specifically.
The spanish legal system is a mess.
An entirely different thing
read up on EBTs, which is an area of tax law that the UK government retrospectively changed the law on. Arsenal ended up having to pay £11m because of it whilst Rangers ended up going into liquidation
By the government saying "we changed the law give us money or go to jail"
Retroactive crime is kinda silly, no? If you are doing something that is currently not illegal, how can the government sentence you afterwards?
It wasn't retroactively, the law existed back then but wasn't enforced and many people took their chances, carletto included
In that case it's not really a loophole, its just tax fraud
Indeed. I've never said otherwise
You know we all call our tax authorities Mafia, but after dealing with the German, the Dutch and the Spanish one, it definitely fits to the latter the most. Annoying to deal with
People don't really understand how the tax system works in Spain. It's not that these people didn't pay taxes at all - the system is incredibly confusing and often pushes individuals to accept guilt and settle, rather than risk going to trial and potentially facing jail time. There are plenty of documentaries and reports showing how the Spanish tax authority has a long history of issues and has unfairly targeted public figures
I can't believe people are still peddling this story lmao. Brother they pretended they were doing work in other countries while they were living in Spain. They set up fake companies in tax havens. Confusing my ass, if anything if it’s confusing you take no chances and do things by the book. The whole point of financial advisors is that they understand those "complexities".
They (or their advisors) were doing something transparently unethical and illegal that had been done for years without prosecution. Then, when it was actually prosecuted, they got got.
It was a loophole that was closed and then people were went after retroactively, if you cannot read or spend 5 minutes to google then it's a you issue. At the time they did nothing illegal because absolutely anybody could have used that loophole. But when it's rich people "tax evading" the facts don't matter right?
A loophole is a way to exploit the laws. Not sure how using tax havens because the law was not clear on it is different than tax evasion. They used shadow companies to not pay taxes. It is evasion.